(10-05-2019, 07:51 AM)hb1148 Wrote:

(10-04-2019, 09:29 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: Fournette is as hot and cold as players can get.  Still needs to prove a LOT to be remotely worthy of a #4 pick. 
 Taylor was just as much a "no brainer" as the others you don't want to credit Caldwell for since he fell so far.  Richardson is a work in progress. 

I find it very odd that so many folks feel so convicted in their assumptions and speculations about what exactly Caldwell and/or Coughlin are responsible for.  You guys are just guessing. You have absolutely no idea which picks (if any) Coughlin altered from Dave's big board. 

Let's not forget that they are BOTH responsible for the Bortles extension as well. 

I can appreciate a hypothesis that TC has positively influenced a few good personnel moves since he arrived, but there's no way to know what he's actually done in that regard. The official story is that there's always a consensus. We're not privy to the process beyond that.

(10-05-2019, 02:57 AM)Senor Fantastico Wrote: You're putting Leonard Fournette, Will Richardson, Jawaan Taylor, and Minshew in the Coughlin column

Vs
Ramsey, Jack, Ngakoue, Linder, Lee, Joeckel, and Telvin Smith in the Caldwell column and declaring decisive victory for Coughlin? 

Anyway, I'm with NYC. Impossible to know what lies where between the two and frankly I see very little difference in the overall quality of the drafts. The biggest sin in my eyes was trying to salvage Bortles by masking him with Fournette and there's no way any of us can know how that decision was ultimately made.

Of course we don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt how the interplay between Caldwell and Coughlin works but do you really think Coughlin just sits in his office and eats sandwich's all day? A guy with his personality? That puts Coughlin in the role of a figure head which is absurd. What proof is there that TC would have agreed to that?  

"Is that going to be the focus? What else is there? What the hell would we be doing this for if not to win? We’re trying to win today. Who's going to get the better lunch? Let’s not have any misunderstanding about why we're here." - Tom Coughlin

I don't think Caldwell is completely out of the picture. I'd bet he still does a majority of the player evaluations and probably presents his case to Coughlin who has his own ideas and then they come to an agreement. If they can't come to an agreement TC most likely has the final say. The differences in the higher picks that where made before and after TC came on board are subtle to be sure. Coughlin's fingerprints become more evident in rounds 3 and below.

I think comparisons of Ramsey, Jack, Ngakoue, Lee, Joeckel and Smith to Fournette, Richardson, Taylor, and Minshew and don't forget Leon Jacobs and Ronnie Harrison are debatable. There's reasons to think the latter group is better top to bottom and there are better value picks there. Joeckel was a bust. Lee is reasonably talented but can't stay on the field. Ramsey is great but may not be here much longer. Ngakoue is a pretty good pass rusher and is a pretty good value for where we was picked but is not great against the run and Jack's a pretty good linebacker and I give props to Caldwell for making that pick when there were concerns about his knee.

Well yeah, this is the point. There is no proof or formal outline that we have any access too. That's why all this Coughlin pick vs Caldwell pick is nonsense. 

But even if you did separate Pre-Coughlin vs Post-Coughlin I find it extremely hard to say the drafts were markedly improved whatsoever. In fact, if I were to list them I'd go best to worst with:

2016
2019
2014
2018
2017
2015
2013 

Hardly any compelling pattern there.

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