(05-29-2020, 07:37 PM)mikesez Wrote:

(05-29-2020, 07:33 PM)JagJohn Wrote: Good post, it's nice to have a bit of rational discussion.

I understand your view, and I agree with you that the people in society who hold blatant racist views are fewer than in the past (at least if you look at it on the grand scale of history). But I definitely disagree about racism not being a big factor in the US today. I don't believe that something that was so entrenched in people's lives back then just fades away to basically nothing, and I don't believe that the society we live in today is fair for all; centuries of oppression created a structured society that still leaves many people facing much greater odds of achieving "success". Of course there are examples of people who have beaten the odds, but there are so many more examples of people who could not.

I hope that your vision of an equal society is something that we could achieve in the future, but I think there are many things that should be done to help bridge the seemingly increasing gaps that have emerged. NYC's logical and clear proposals about reforming police use of force and vetting for racial bias seems like an obvious immediate example of something that could make a difference, even if only in perception at first.

As far as your questions about what may have happened in this case to end up with the man on the ground, I obviously don't know anything you don't know. It would be interesting to see, for sure. But in my mind it doesn't change a thing about what happened once he was on the floor, cuffed, with three cops kneeling on him, essentially begging for his life. 

Either way, personally I am less interested in the specifics of each and every case like this. I always look at the big picture, and when you put this case in the context of so many others that we have seen over the last decade or so (and not just those that result in death), I find it impossible not to think about a bigger underlying problem that link these things. I know jj and last42 will see that as some kind of neurosis on my part, I feel similarly about their narrow use of statistics and how they ignore the views of people who actually live the experience, and the visual evidence that forms a terrifying whole, not a series of singularities.

Very well said.  But to be fair, JJ keeps telling us he's black.  And I believe it.  So he should have some of this lived experience, but he never talks about it.

I've talked about it before, but I'll bring it up again.  

I'm not a big fan of police.  It's not because I think there is a universal racial bias.  It's because I know that the state is a poor check on it's own powers.  Police officers are the most dangerous form of state authority that 99.999999% of citizens will ever see.  For a Judge to Impose a death penalty it will take a trial and 20 some odd years of appeals, verdicts etc.  A police officer can kill based on reasonable threat of life or great bodily injury.  Police officers are always going to be given the benefit of the doubt by prosecutors and judges.  That's just the way it is.  That's why I think that their role in society should be limited to protecting the property rights of citizens.  

As for my personal experience I was falsely arrested, falsely charged with a Felony, and essentially robbed by two police officers who didn't look like me.  The level of misconduct would make Sydney Powell blush.  They were literally conspiring to charge me with theft because I had the title to a car I had just purchased in my pocket.  Think about that.  They wanted to charge me with theft because I had proof of ownership!  Luckily that charge was not approved by prosecutors.  Instead they tried to charge me with a third degree felony because they alleged that I scraped the vin off of a piece of equipment that never had one in the first place.  Luckily I had the money for a lawyer and had the case thrown out.  Most people who didn't have a lawyer would have been forced into copping a plea like 90% plus of the criminal cases in this country.  I am no fan of the criminal justice system or the state exercising this level of power.  I just recognize that the problem is actually BIGGER than one or two cops prejudice cops.  

I was also injured during my Arrest.  When they put the cuffs on me they crushed my nerve in my right wrist and I still have a deformation because of it.  But during that experience I learned something that stuck with me.  At the time, i had a hole in my back pocket and when they lugged me out of the car, my wallet fell out of my back pocket and to the ground.  I asked the arresting officer to pick it up and put it in my pocket.  He did.  when he knelt down he put his forearm on my knee.  Why?  Because most of the time when someone asks for them to pick something up they plan on kicking them in the teeth or something to that affect.  They crushed my wrist with their handcuffs because I'm 6' 300lbs and they knew if i wanted to hurt them that I could.  Now I'm biased!  My first few semesters of College I thought I wanted to be a criminal defense attorney and took a couple courses in criminal justice.  In that environment I was exposed to the thought process that permeates in law enforcement that in reality ANYONE can be a threat.  

So in summation, I am black.  I have had a very negative experience with police officer.  I have no illusions that just because you have a badge on makes you a saint, but at the same time i can empathize with the stresses and realities of doing that job.  I can also understand how those stressors added to a life or death situation can cause tragedy.

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