(05-31-2020, 12:49 AM)Bullseye Wrote: While I am here, I want to address the self righteous finger wagging from the right about the unrest we are currently experiencing throughout the country.

First let me start by saying that I have always enjoyed talking with you Bullseye.  I have always respected your intellect, reasoning and the way you articulate yourself.  That being said, as a POC, I have to disagree with everything about your basic premise in the strongest terms possible.

Right now, we're not seeing "self righteous finger waving from the right," decrying UNREST.  We are seeing universal condemnation of senseless violence, destruction, and the intentional targeting of INNOCENT CIVILIANS.    

Throughout this country's history, we tried the non violent route against those of you who refused to offer us the same courtesy.

From this point on you are trying to justify violence and destruction against innocent people.  

In the 60s, Dr. Martin Luther King preached non violence and African Americans followed his lead.  He was greeted with fire hoses, german shepherds, biilly clubs, axe handles, jailing, FBI surveillance, character assassination and ultimately, actual assassination.  To this day, some 52 or so years later, people continue to call him a communist womanizer.

Let the record show, that through his actions, written works, speeches, etc. that Martin Luther King inspired some of the most lasting change in the history of this world, not just this country.  The lasting image of peaceful protesters, with legitimate grievances based on common self evident truths, being assaulted by police officers for simply being black claimed the moral high ground and changed the country.  

There is no public figure, of any stature high or low, that doesn't face a choir of detractors.  Even our most beloved figures had character flaws some could seek to exploit.  That doesn't change the fact that in this country we honor his memory, his sacrifice, and his ideals by honoring the day of his birth and striving towards the mountain top that he espoused.  

Also during the Civil Rights era, there were black olympians who won medals who gave  raised fists on the medal platform-a silent form of political expression.  They were stripped of their medals.

Kaepernick silently kneeled on the sidelines-even consulted with a former Green Beret, on how to best express displeasure over the extrajudicial killings of African Americans by police and others who wrongfully asserted some sort of authority. 

That's just a lie.  In this country the legal expression of justice is DUE PROCESS.  Whether it's Mike Brown, Rice, Castillo, Aubery, Floyd etc. there's no case in this country (that I'm aware of) in which the person of colors death wasn't investigated and prosecuted with the basic respect that we afford to anyone of any color.  Not liking a verdict, charge, or outcome doesn't make an action EXTRAJUDICIAL.  

He too was vilified by the right.  He was called a traitor, disrespectful, and players who knelt were called sons of [BLEEP] by the racist in chief, urged to leave the country and blackballed from the league.

He was vilified by the right, and that's nothing compared to the disrespect he should have gotten.  Anyone who posts about "revolution" while the city burns should be charged with conspiracy to commit the same property damage, violence and chaos that is being perpetrated on this country right now.  

But throughout that time, those on the right offered no constructive criticism regarding how African Americans should express dissent.  I know I have asked numerous times over the years and have received no answer, other than to be called an "outside agitator" (despite at the time living here almost 30 years, and being told in myriad ways to shut up, some by past  members of the earlier iteration of this board.

Another lie.  This isn't the first time this has happened.  Ferguson, Baltimore etc.  Don't break things.  Don't set things on fire.  Don't take things that aren't yours.  It's seems pretty simple to me.

As unfortunate as these things were, they don't tell the complete story.

A few years back, the overwhelmingly white Bundy militia were protesting the government's imposition of a grazing fee.  When the government tried to collect on years of unpaid grazing fees from the Bundy's, his heavily armed supporters trained high caliber weapons upon the federal law enforcement from strategic points surrounding the scene.  Notably absent from the conservative discussion were the talk of noncompliance.  Non compliance with directives from law enforcement was the blanket justification used to excuse the police killings of various African Americans.   Hannity and others on the right labeld them as heroes.  There were no shootings by law enforcement.  There were no fire hoses or tear gas deployed.

More recently, groups of armed white  "militia men," some flying Nazi and Confederate flags, stormed state government buildings in Michigan.  They were belligerent towards law enforcement.  They too, were hailed as heroes by the right.  They received encouragement by the bastard in the white house.  Notably absent from the discourse were assaults on the patriotism of the Nazi and confederate flag fliers, even though they represented entities that actually waged war against the United States, killing thousands of American soldiers.  The right was silent on the disrespect of the military they alleged Kaepernick and the kneeling NFL players displayed.  There was no talk about the lack of deference towards law enforcement.  Just adulation.

Taken together the message from the right is tacit but clear...  the conclusion iinescapable: the African American First Amendment right to peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances is inferior to those of the white man to that of the white man to redress grievances- peacably  or otherwise-if it exists at all.

Actually Hannity, since you bring him up, condemned the Michigan Protests.  I personally don't have any affection for the Bundy response.  But that doesn't change the fact that in both of those cases you had demonstrations against STATE AGRESSORS and you didn't have wanton property destruction, theft, violence against police officers etc.  To compare either of those demonstrations to the carnage being blared across our TV screens is beneath you.  

I reject any paradigm reflecting that.  Hell, you guys are taking up arms because you can't get haircuts or having to wear masks during a pandemic.  Certainly you would be furious if anyone suggested your first amendment rights are not to be respected.

Accordingly, those who do not acknowledge the blatant hypocrisy in those dissonant stances have lost any moral high ground to dictate how Americans express dissent.

And I reject any paradigm built on false equivalence.  

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(05-30-2020, 10:57 PM)JagJohn Wrote: I may as well stop posting on here. Bullseye, as always, has absolutely nailed it, much better than I ever could. NYC also continues to make concrete, realistic points, that continually get ignored.

The tide is slowly but surely turning. America, slowly but surely, is in the process of coming to terms with it's real history and how that history still effects how society is shaped. I hope this can be a turning point for honest reflection. I'm fully aware so many of you will continue to deny what is clear as day.

Thank you.

As to your closing sentiments, I am not so hopeful or optimistic about this country's future.  Anther lesson learned when comparing the disparate responses to African American peaceful dissent of police brutality and white dissent towards the government is to avoid negative results from law enforcement, it may be better for African American to walk around in large groups of heavily and conspicuously armed individuals.  That I am even considering this should speak volumes.

https://www.tmz.com/2020/05/30/salt-lake...gKSAxquodY

As to the question "has racism been eliminated in America" that's frankly a silly question.  Unfortunately, we are nations of men.  On every corner of the earth in every direction there are expressions of hate, malice, bias, racism, apathy, sadism etc.  That's not unique to this country, that's intrinsic to the human condition.  That's why governments are made among men to protect the rights of the citizens there in.  The concept of common citizenship is based on the pursuit of the ideals of common justice in OPPOSITION to our fallen natures.  Over the last 160 years that common pursuit has lead to the single most diverse and dynamic population on of any nation on earth.  But if we take any incident that negatively affects someone who "looks like us" as an excuse to try and relitigate past grievances then that's a betrayal of those common ideals and an embrace of the kind of tribalism that you claim to despise.  And if you advocate aggression against innocent people because of what you perceive as a slight against your tribe, then how are you any different than the guy from the 60's in a white hood?

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