(12-31-2021, 12:54 PM)SeldomRite Wrote:

(12-31-2021, 11:12 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: Yes, you fail to recognize the "world's police" is a simplistic argument. If the world were stable without geopolitical strife, it would be a valid argument. But it is not. It is a harsh and predatory place. 

Open sea lanes are critical for the support of free enterprise, and by extension democracy, around the world. At the end of WWII, the U.S. voluntarily shouldered the burden of maintaining open commerce and supporting democracy to benefit the world and prevent the same catastrophic war from which we had just emerged. It hasn't always been a pretty process, but the benefits worldwide far outweigh the negatives. 

Who is preventing Russia from invading Ukraine? Who stands as a bulwark between China and Taiwan? Who provided stability in Western Europe post WWII in order for it to rebuild and prosper? Who is ensures sea routes are open and free, for all countries, so that you may receive your Amazon orders in a timely manner? Who trains and allies their might with the militaries of Europe and Asia against aggressiveness from China and Russia? 

But an even more important question: Who pilloried Donald Trump when he pushed NATO countries, who are delinquent on their financial obligations in the tens of billions of dollars, to finally (here's that line so endearing to the left) pay their fair share? Yes, ladies and gentlemen, the American left condemned Donald Trump because he had the hutzpah to demand payment for services rendered to our NATO allies. 

Yes, we are the world's police because without us it would resemble a major American city with an idiot defund the police democrat mayor. The world needs us on that wall. They want us on that wall. It not only benefits them, but it also benefits us.

If my argument is simplistic then yours is ridiculously misguided. Free enterprise means shipping american manufacturing jobs to China.

Are you serious? Russia already invaded Ukraine.

Why does the United States have to pay to keep sea lanes open so that iPhones can be made in China instead of Nebraska? The Europeans are wealthy enough to take on a much larger share.

Why are you bringing up leftists anger at Donald Trump? To me you're looking a lot like the leftists, just with a different set of social issues and things you want to tax and spend on. I never came here to complain about Donald Trump calling out NATO. If course if he really wanted to make a difference he'd have shrank the military budget and started closing European bases.

As for what the world wants, I have no doubt most of it wants to keep loaning us money that your grand kids will have to pay off to let them take our jobs.

Wow!

Oh good, it seems we're making progress here. It appears you grasp the concept of free enterprise. In a free enterprise system, consumers and producers are free to make the choices which benefit them the most. Producers of iPhones and myriad other products choose to have them manufactured where costs are much cheaper. At the same time, you benefit from cheaper costs in the prices you pay, but also have the choice to not buy that product. Were our government not supportive of free enterprise and demanded iPhones be manufactured in Nebraska, then you the consumer would be paying far more for that product. 

But the best thing about free enterprise is that it introduces the concept of democracy - freedom to choose. It's a dynamic process which doesn't happen overnight, but it presents to consumers the freedom to choose a product and prosperity because they are participating in the free enterprise system of consuming and manufacturing. As witnessed by the histories of the United States, Europe, and several Asian countries, free enterprise also brings about labor and environmental reform. 

Yes, Russia invaded eastern Ukraine several years ago but appear to be on the brink of invading again. Surely, you've heard about it. It's in all the newspapers. 

I was expressing no anger to the left. Merely pointing out their glaring hypocrisy. Against their own best interest, they chose to cast aside their complaints of defense budget to attack the very person who was working to lower it. Kinda stupid, huh? Btw, we've closed quite a few military bases across Europe in the last two decades. Trump wanted to close down even more. Guess who protested? The countries where the bases are located. Not only do they still provide security, but they are also economic engines. So Trump demanded they pay more of the operation fees for these overseas bases. And the democrats cried. I bet Biden isn't pursuing that strategy.

Lowering the defense budget is doable while still maintaining global dominance for the greater good. Unfortunately, we have lawmakers on one side of the aisle who view doing so with the same meat axe approach of defunding the police. It is possible to pass some of the expense off to our those we have traditionally aided, and Trump was doing just that, which means by default democrats must undo it.

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(12-31-2021, 01:02 PM)mikesez Wrote:

(12-31-2021, 11:12 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: Yes, you fail to recognize the "world's police" is a simplistic argument. If the world were stable without geopolitical strife, it would be a valid argument. But it is not. It is a harsh and predatory place. 

Open sea lanes are critical for the support of free enterprise, and by extension democracy, around the world. At the end of WWII, the U.S. voluntarily shouldered the burden of maintaining open commerce and supporting democracy to benefit the world and prevent the same catastrophic war from which we had just emerged. It hasn't always been a pretty process, but the benefits worldwide far outweigh the negatives. 

Who is preventing Russia from invading Ukraine? Who stands as a bulwark between China and Taiwan? Who provided stability in Western Europe post WWII in order for it to rebuild and prosper? Who is ensures sea routes are open and free, for all countries, so that you may receive your Amazon orders in a timely manner? Who trains and allies their might with the militaries of Europe and Asia against aggressiveness from China and Russia? 

But an even more important question: Who pilloried Donald Trump when he pushed NATO countries, who are delinquent on their financial obligations in the tens of billions of dollars, to finally (here's that line so endearing to the left) pay their fair share? Yes, ladies and gentlemen, the American left condemned Donald Trump because he had the hutzpah to demand payment for services rendered to our NATO allies. 

Yes, we are the world's police because without us it would resemble a major American city with an idiot defund the police democrat mayor. The world needs us on that wall. They want us on that wall. It not only benefits them, but it also benefits us.

That is what Trump said, but the NATO allies never owed the United States any money.  They were supposed to be spending more of their own money on their own armies and navies, so that we could spend less of our money. Nearly every country in NATO decreased their defense spending under Obama and increased it under Trump.  But time will tell if Trump's posturing had any lasting effect.  Hopefully Biden not only keeps up the pressure on our allies, but finds ways to spend more wisely at home.

Six of one, half dozen of the other. We were incurring greater costs because they were knowingly bilking us.

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