(09-20-2022, 05:26 AM)The Real Marty Wrote:

(09-19-2022, 02:11 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: I didn’t say your signature is bull shot. I was merely expressing the dichotomy of your judgement of Drifter’s post concerning manipulation and your signature’s assertion that we are not in full control of ourselves.

I guess what I’m saying is you’ll have to explain your meaning of free will is an illusion.

Your point is well taken.  We are certainly subject to manipulation, and the statement "Free will is an illusion" would mean we are completely manipulated.  Excellent point.  

Okay, here is my explanation of "Free will is an illusion."

Think of these two basic scientific principles: 

1) Energy cannot be created or destroyed.  
2) An object at rest remains at rest, or if in motion, remains in motion at a constant velocity unless acted on by a net external force.

What these two principles tell us is that nothing occurs spontaneously.  Since the big bang, there is no event anyone can cite that occurred without being caused by some preceding event.  So all events are caused by preceding events.  If all events are caused by preceding events, then even your thoughts and your decisions are caused by preceding events.  If your decisions are caused by preceding events, then you are not actually controlling your decisions.  You have the illusion of control.  You don't actually have free will in the sense of -
 
"[b]free will[/b], in philosophy and science, the supposed power or capacity of humans to make decisions or perform actions independently of any prior event or state of the universe. "  https://www.britannica.com/topic/free-will

What I am talking about is called "determinism."  

Article about Free Will and Determinism

It seems to me that, unless you believe that supernatural forces intervene in the natural world, you have to believe in determinism.  And at that point, I have to stop because we would go into religion if I go any further.