(05-24-2023, 02:29 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote:

(05-24-2023, 01:58 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: OK

Just a few points to clarify:

• 1. You're attributing "the acceptance" of child sexual abuse to the left and attempting to exclude the right and that is silly - these people are twisted, ugly and evil - doesn't matter how you try to pin them down politically - which seems the equivalent of me saying "Jack the Ripper was probably a Republican" -  It's silly
  
• 2. I don't think the normalizing of queer or trans activity deserves a comparison to normalizing these sickos you are comparing that to - apples and oranges
  
• 3. Quoting philosophers isn't going to get us home here either - we could do that till the cows come home - they provide a myriad of quotes leading all over the place
  

annnnnyway - Not really interested in going down the rabbit hole of perversion conspiracy since I don't believe we are seeing that happening. You seem to think so and that's perfectly fine. 

I think we're merely seeing a wider acceptance of queer and trans lifestyle and we, a society as a whole, are trying to figure out what the boundaries of that are going to be. It's still new to us.
 It is likely going to get knocked about and rub some people the wrong way before it possibly settles into a newly accepted framework. 

(just a sidebar on that last comment - As a heterosexual liberal, I can often find myself annoyed by the inundation of queer and trans culture stuff coming down the pike from media and entertainment outlets. It's not for me and it's almost ever-present lately.   I just move past it and find content I prefer, but I do understand that it feels like we get hit over the head with it at times. And I see why folks who disagree with it morally would feel there is a "movement" in place to normalize this stuff with kids)

1. How would you say this is different than someone's claim that racism is associated with the right? I accept that there are racists among "free speech" right. I don't think the right as a whole supports it, but there is an idea, traditionalism, that at least enables some racists to feel justified in their racism, even though it's not accepted by mainstream conservatives. The same is true with the left and child sexuality.
2. I am not comparing the practice, but comparing how the celebration of any practice will naturally lead to an increase of that behavior. I could have used cannibalism, murder, rape. It doesn't matter. Celebrate it, and it will become more common, because humans have a remarkable capacity for adaptation.
3. It's important to understand why people believe what they believe. I spent years learning the philosophy of the left so I can better understand their arguments. I don't think most people care, but it does affect the dialogue, because people are often quick to repeat talking points without considering the underlying argument. Moral relativism is a very strong component of progressive ideology, and a lot of that gets applied to anything that is considered taboo. 

As a whole, I don't think broader America has a problem with what people do as an adult. I think they care about being feeling "forced" to accept lifestyles they don't understand. I mostly agree with your assessment of getting used to something that is different that what you are used to seeing. I think I disagree that we need to automatically accept this new framework. I think there is a difference between acceptance, normalization, and celebration, and we don't have enough of a nuanced conversation about these things. We have no adults in the room, so to speak.

1. I still think you are in an apples to oranges situation with these attempts to compare. Illegal Sexual abuse and legal sexual behavior don't deserve to be compared this way and neither political group deserves to have these things attributed to them. 
2. The celebration angle doesn't aid the argument in any way. Anyone celebrating abuse is a sicko, and their politics are far from the real issue. You're reaching hard trying to put adaptation of child abuse and normalization of queer culture in a box together. Keep trying if you wish - but I'm not wasting keystrokes on it. 
3.not lost on me

I like your final paragraph. I would say that when I mentioned the "framework" I said nothing about it being accepted - but rather suggested we are in the process of framing it. 

Regarding media and queer culture:
we saw it depicted and fed to us in one way through the 50's and 60's. Another slightly modified way in the 70's and 80s. The 90's through early oughts showed a slightly more open presentation, and right now we are seeing the most progressive change in how it is presented and how often it finds its way into various media and art. 

So right now, liberals and conservatives, along with their counterparts in media and advertising are figuring out what the "new boundaries" are. What that framework is. I don't think it is automatically adopted or you and I wouldn't be hashing this out. 

That's what I see happening anyway.

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