(07-05-2023, 01:47 AM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote:

(07-04-2023, 12:57 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: Lol, you didn't stand by your takes; you've tried to pretend that you had a different take than you did. You refuse to accept accountability for what you thought, believed, and posted for months. Then you want to act like the people who remind you of that garbage are the ones who were wrong. Spin it however you want in your attempt to make you the good guy; we know what you did. And we always will. You were given the opportunity for a Mea Culpa (that means admit your mistake btw), but instead you just keep digging yourself in further and further. Because everything you just accused me of is exactly what you are (we call that Projection fyi).

Quote:Okay i'ma just go ahead and give you the TLR version.

My take prior to the draft in a nutshell:

Bullseye's comments in teal.

My TLR version:  Male Bovine excrement!

Quote:He's got talent, but is largely being over hyped

Overhyped?!?  We've seen the posts where he has finished in the top 5-10 in most major categories despite him operating in his first year in this offense, after a rookie year being coached by a man widely discussed nationally as one of the worst coaches in NFL history. There was at least one analyst (Kyle Brandt) who ranked him only above this year's rookie crop in terms of QBs.

Quote:I disagree with comparing him to Luck/Manning because he had MANY flaws coming out of college,

Interesting.  Presumably this means Manning had far fewer flaws coming out of college.  I will assume, arguendo, you are talking about Peyton Manning (Not Archie or Eli, for the moment).  If so, please indulge me. Was one of the flaws TL had that Manning lacked the ability to read defenses properly?  I posed this question because you are constantly harping on the INTs (TL) has thrown.

Assuming your premise that reading defense is a deficiency that Manning lacked, to what do you attribute his INT total as a rookie?  Peyton Manning threw TWENTY EIGHT (28) INTs as a rookie https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...nnPe00.htm , compared to only SEVENTEEN (17) thrown by Trevor Lawrence. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...wrTr00.htm How did that happen?  Playing in one fewer game per year, Peyton Manning threw as many INTs in his rookie season as it it took Trevor Lawrence playing in his first two years  plus two extra games due to the schedule change from 16 in Manning's era to 17 in TLs)! 

But the INT analysis isn't done yet, because thus far, the comparison has been between one year for Peyton Manning vs. two tears and two extra games for Trevor Lawrence.  What happens when you include Peyton Manning's 2nd year INT totals?  Manning showed substantial improvement in his second year cutting his INTs from TWENTY-EIGHT (28) his rookie year to FIFTEEN (15) in his second.  That showed dramatic improvement from the first year to the second for the future HOFer Manning, giving him a two year total of FORTY-THREE (43) INTs.  But strangely, the flawed Trevor Lawrence had a similar reduction of INTs from his rookie year to his second year, throwing only EIGHT (8) in his second year.

I was no math major in college, so I will need someone more mathematically competent than I to check my numbers, but it appears that after two seasons, Manning threw EIGHTEEN (18) more INTs  than Trevor Lawrence playing in two fewer games. 

How did THAT happen?

But there are more questions that arise from ChrisJagBoy's analysis.

According to ChrisJagBey, Trevor Lawrence had more flaws coming out of college than Peyton Manning, such that the two did not warrant comparison as rookies.

Yet despite these flaws, by the end of the second year, Trevor Lawrence threw as many TDs in his second year (26) as Peyton Manning (26) in his.

How do you explain this, ChrisJagBoy?

Yes, Lawrence played in that 17th game as opposed to Manning.

But I don't think that explains everything.

I submit surrounding talent and coaching are contributing factors in overall QB performance.

While this is far from an all encompassing or complete list, Peyton Manning had future Hall of Famers RB Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James (both of whom were former top 5 picks in the NFL draft), and Marvin Harrison, plus future Pro Bowl LT Tarik Glenn with him on the roster his first two seasons.  Trevor Lawrence?

At RB he had James Robinson (an UDFA) and Travis Etienne.  His leading WRs were the then 31 year old Marvin Jones and Laviska Shenault.  The leading receiver at TE was Dan Arnold, acquired in a mid season trade with Carolina.

Based on what you know of their careers, which group of skill players would you rather have?  Faulk, James, Harrison and Glenn were all on the primes of their careers when Manning joined them in 1998 (James in 1999).  On the other han, Robinson was traded the next season, Etienne didn't play his rookie season due to a lisfranc injury, Jones was never a #1 WR, and Shenault, despite our optiimism, never developed into anything special before being traded to Carolina.  Dan Arnold, who was acquired in a trade, had 24 receptions.  Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather have three future Hall of Famers and a future Pro Bowler all in their primes supporting my young QB than the guys Trevor Lawrence had his rookie year.

As for coaching, say what you will about Jim Mora's sound bites, or his overly conservative leanings with the Saints, but at least he had NFL successful NFL coaching experience prior to coming to the Colts.

Urban Meyer?  Not so much.  He didn't last a complete season.  I don't think it's a coincidence Trevor Lawrence showed the improvement he did when the team improved the coaching from Meyer in year one to Doug Pederson-who played under Don Shula and Mike Holmgren and being an assistant coach under Andy Reid before winning a Super Bowl in Philadelphia before coming to Jacksonville.

But again, maybe I'm crazy enough to think that coaching competence/philosophy and surrounding talent influences QB performance and development in a big way.  What say you, ChrisJagBoy?

Quote:the other two did not. I pointed out said flaws (things like inaccuracy throwing on the run, making extremely questionable throws (like the endzone ints he had a few of last season for examples, or the ints in his rookie season where he threw it 5 yards over the middle directly into the hands of the opposing teams linebackers with no jaguar players around at all), tendency to sail passes over his WRs (which happened, a lot) Tendency to sail passes WILDLY whilst throwing on the run, tendency to only rollout to his left no matter how the pocket collapsed forcing him to throw the ball awkwardly...

This list goes on.

(Emphasis added)


I never called him a bust <-- This was JaguarMVP who was admittedly saying a lot of the same stuff I was saying almost as if he was fan girling my posts, but he was going much more extreme than me.. he took my observations and used them as fuel for what seemed like a hate campaign where he ACTUALLY called him a bust. 

I am on record, the day we drafted him in a thread that I MADE saying I was Cautiously Optimistic.. Don't see why i'd be optimistic at all if I thought he was a bust/had no talent. 

I Pointed out the flaws as I saw them during game day threads, defending my earlier points.


Theres nothing else to be said, the only reason this even gets talked about anymore is because dumb and dumber keeps bringing it up.