(11-02-2023, 10:25 PM)mikesez Wrote:

(11-02-2023, 08:47 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: I am not making a claim to Trump's innocence OR guilt. In this thread, I have said I reserve the right to change my mind based on testimony. I am arguing with other people who are starting with guilt, then conforming the narrative to that world view.

He deserves a fair trial and the jurors should presume innocence, but the intent of the law in Georgia was to punish any influential person, who has enough access to information to know better, who presents relevant but false information to a government official.   Trump's only possible defense, which you have repeatedly invoked, is that he didn't know better.  That he completely ignored many advisors, officials, and judges who told him there was no evidence, and only listened to the ones telling him lies.  But that's still a pattern of behavior that nobody in any kind of public trust should ever engage in.  

I know you're a reasonable person.  The facts in Georgia show that he either deliberately lied, or that he delusionally lied.  Either way that's criminal, punishable behavior per Georgia law, either way it was completely self serving, and and either way it's not behavior befitting a leader.  

I think we could debate the point about it being criminal if he believed it. Maybe delusions of this type aren't criminal.  I think they are, but maybe they're not.  But they're still not befitting a leader.  If a man kills someone but his lawyer successfully shows that the man didn't understand what he was doing, we agree that's no longer criminal, but the man still ends up in a psych ward. Not free to continue putting lives at risk.  If Trump really believed, 40 days later, that there was something to the stories of hundreds of thousands of fraudulent ballots, his attachment to reality is not corresponding to sanity.  Yet he shows few if any other symptoms of insanity, so it's more likely that he deliberately lied than delusionally.

Anyhow.

When do we get to move on?

Personally, I think these charges are largely concocted, but we'll see if anything actually damning comes out with this testimony. I have a feeling it will be more of the same... lines taken out of context and soundbites, but we'll see. 

That said, I have no problem with this line of reasoning. I still think it's short sighted. Trump aside, I don't see how any person can come in and effectuate change without being castigated and maligned to the point they lose all credibility. It is going to take someone like Trump who is self-serving and narcissistic, but who's interests align more with the American people than the establishment. 

There is a reason things were better under Trump. It's not because he's a great man. He just wants America to be like it was when he was growing up, and, the reality is, that's a BETTER America (minus the racism, obviously). No person who comes in office and pushes back against our corrupt establishment will come out unscathed. 

I know you like to think you are open minded, but the minute all of the establishment puts its power into destroying someone, you will cave. You can't help it. You're just not a strong enough person outside that little part of your faith that pushes back from time to time. That's just my opinion. 

To your larger point, I would love to have an honorable and dignified leader who genuinely wants change and genuinely wants to help American citizens. I think most Republicans would ditch Trump in a heartbeat if they thought there was a candidate who would fight like Trump. Sometimes, I think DeSantis could be that guy, but, you know, he wore boots.

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