(09-03-2024, 06:16 PM)The Real Marty Wrote:

(09-03-2024, 04:24 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: Ok, but that still relies on the belief that there is no level of randomness in a person's thoughts throughout the day.  Sure, most thoughts are put there by external stimuli, but all?  I have doubts.  The assertion either way is something that can only be speculated and debated in the gray area this topic occupies.  You can't say with certainty that rewinding to the beginning of yesterday for everyone on earth and then pressing play is going to result in the exact same outcome for every single person on earth because such an exercise is impossible to implement.  You're welcome to believe it, but to state unequivocally that's what would happen is a matter of faith, not necessarily fact.

Suicide has as much to do with the subject as any other decision a human being makes which your argument says they aren't really making freely. It just has a finality to it that no other decision does and human beings do not come out of the womb intentionally trying to kill themselves, so something else is absolutely involved in reaching that final conclusion and overcoming the programming of self preservation, life experience certainly having a significant part for most, but is that the only aspect?

Reading up further on "determinism" sounds like a depressing waste of time because 1) it's not going to change anything if those who subscribe to the philosophy are correct, 2) more detailed knowledge on the topic is not going to improve me or my mindset, 3) it essentially absolves individuals of all responsibility for their thoughts/actions and 4) it sounds pretty straight forward in our brief discussion here. What more do I need to know?  

Number 3 above is one reason why I'll have fun debating gray areas such as this for a time, but will eventually go back to ignoring it.  You can take any topic into the grayest of areas and come away with and rationalize some very unproductive and dangerous conclusions for society, by Ph.D.'s no less.

If your thoughts were random, how could you have free will?  Randomness doesn't fit with free will, because if your thoughts are random, that doesn't give you any control over them.

Belief in determinism isn't a matter of faith, it's a matter of logic, based on the science that we are pretty sure is true.  As I explained earlier.

Randomness in thought and free will are separate concepts.  A person has many thoughts throughout a day.  Some are acted on, some are not.  Some thoughts come to mind without any clear external stimuli.  My comment about randomness of thought is in refuting your attempt to apply the laws of motion to all human thought.  Not all decisions can be chalked up to being rationalized from prior experience, not all decisions require prior experience to be made, not all decisions have a clear correct choice. That said, I agree that much of what a person acts on throughout a day or a lifetime falls under determinism, but that doesn't mean that it all does.  So, there is no attempt here to refute that determinism is a significant part of what goes on in the universe, however, to say that self made and otherwise accomplished individuals or even downtrodden individuals changing their own fortunes haven't achieved things in their lives often times through force of will doesn't jibe with my personal life experience and observations.  Overcoming one's own programming comes first from understanding the root causes and the why's of what drives a persons decision making.  I'm not suggesting that free will is necessarily even all that rampant, but humanity has the ability in my mind.  Interesting to debate for a time, but ultimately what's the benefit that comes from subscribing to the theory carte blanche as you have?   It seems just another battlefield for pessimism vs. optimism to me and as I stated previously kinda absolves people of the responsibility of their poor decisions and actions.

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