(09-03-2024, 10:59 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote:

(09-03-2024, 06:16 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: If your thoughts were random, how could you have free will?  Randomness doesn't fit with free will, because if your thoughts are random, that doesn't give you any control over them.

Belief in determinism isn't a matter of faith, it's a matter of logic, based on the science that we are pretty sure is true.  As I explained earlier.

Randomness in thought and free will are separate concepts.  A person has many thoughts throughout a day.  Some are acted on, some are not.  Some thoughts come to mind without any clear external stimuli.  My comment about randomness of thought is in refuting your attempt to apply the laws of motion to all human thought.  Not all decisions can be chalked up to being rationalized from prior experience, not all decisions require prior experience to be made, not all decisions have a clear correct choice. That said, I agree that much of what a person acts on throughout a day or a lifetime falls under determinism, but that doesn't mean that it all does.  So, there is no attempt here to refute that determinism is a significant part of what goes on in the universe, however, to say that self made and otherwise accomplished individuals or even downtrodden individuals changing their own fortunes haven't achieved things in their lives often times through force of will doesn't jibe with my personal life experience and observations.  Overcoming one's own programming comes first from understanding the root causes and the why's of what drives a persons decision making.  I'm not suggesting that free will is necessarily even all that rampant, but humanity has the ability in my mind.  Interesting to debate for a time, but ultimately what's the benefit that comes from subscribing to the theory carte blanche as you have?   It seems just another battlefield for pessimism vs. optimism to me and as I stated previously kinda absolves people of the responsibility of their poor decisions and actions.

That is a logical point, and it does bring up the question, "Suppose free will is an illusion?  Does knowing that make any difference in our lives?"  And the answer is no.   Knowing free will is an illusion should make no difference in how you live your life, including whether you hold people responsible for their actions.  Holding people responsible for their actions is a necessary adaptation for our own survival in a civilized society.  So we have to continue to operate as if we have free will in order to survive, even if we know that free will is an illusion.  

For example, does the fact that free will is an illusion, and everything that happens is inevitable, absolve Hitler of responsibility for his actions?  In theory, yes, but in practicality, absolutely not.  We have to hold wrongdoers responsible in order to survive.  (Of course, holding them responsible is also inevitable, because everything is inevitable.)  

Free will is an illusion, but we have to operate and live our lives as if it is not an illusion.  

So that brings up the question, why even consider this theory that has absolutely no bearing on how we live our lives?  To me, it's just knowing.  That's the value of it to me.  Just knowing that's the way the universe works.  It also reminds me that, since whatever happens to me is inevitable, then where I am is a product of pure luck.  It sort of keeps me from thinking too much of myself.  I didn't put myself here.  The universe did.  And whatever I have achieved in life, it was just pure luck.  We're just actors in a play, and our lines were written by the universe.

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