(12-15-2024, 10:14 AM)TDOSS Wrote:

(12-14-2024, 11:35 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: I'll give him one more shot. If he doesn't address my points, I'll move on. I have better things to do than feed trolls.

I'll start with the premise that left/right is not an accurate paradigm to adequately measure anything but preservation of tradition, and it's widely misused by political novices and rhetoricians. It's an arbitrary measure based on the political leanings of the French during their revolution. In its purest sense, the right has come to be associated with tradition and the left change. However, the left-right paradigm loses almost all of its value when you start trying to clump multiple ideals into a simple, horizontal axis. It's just absurd to do such a thing. We don't measure anything else this way. To suggest that the American right favors tyranny is about an absurd an idea as one could have.

The left-right paradigm is only useful when it's defined in a clear way, and in the context of the traditions a group is trying to preserve. In this regard ONLY, I agree the NAZIs were right wing. That doesn't make them comparable to the American right, because they are attempting to hold onto different values. For every similarity between the American right and the German right you list, I can find differences. It's a fool's errand to try to link entire groups to other groups because it lacks nuance and understanding. 

TDS, you and your ilk are so inconsistent in your values. If I tried to say how American blacks are just like American whites (of which there are far more similarities than dissimilarities), you would yammer on about the importance of identity and multiculturalism. Yet, when it's convenient, you disparage entire clusters of people if you think it gives you a political advantage. It's gross. And if you really believed what you preached, you would be so quick to swallow that bukkake.

I don't know why you believe my characterization of pre-WWII Germany is inaccurate (since your replay was read a book), but it's pretty spot on, if not oversimplified. I have been one of the most conciliatory posters on this board when it comes to acknowledging the similarities between Germany and the US, especially as it pertains to cultural resistance to leftist ideas. I think the conditions do favor an authoritarian offering to abuse the powers of the state on behalf of the people. That's what Hitler did. That said, you either aren't honest enough or bright enough to see what's causing this, which is too much change being ushered in by the radicals on the left.

Actually, I agree that the radicals on the left have been ushering in too much change at one time, which has pushed those right of center further right, to the point that they begin to resemble the old Nazi/fascist right.

I also agree that the left/right paradigm is an inadequate measure. However, I'm not a big identity Democrat or someone focused in the extreme on multiculturalism. You're oversimplifying, too.

There's a huge difference between being attached to traditional hierarchy and forging toward equality without forcing an end to hierarchy by merit. But money isn't merit, and neither is traditional hierarchy. Time only goes in one direction, and it favors eventual progressive social values and more egalitarian distribution of wealth, even though there may be small reactionary turns.

You argue that it is important to place historical events in a contextual perspective and compare them to alternatives from that time. Saying that Nazism developed as a reaction to the threat of communism is partially correct, but it does not explain why the Nazis themselves adopted ideas that were deeply authoritarian and anti-individualistic. It is also misleading to call these "leftist ideas" simply because the state played a central role.

Let us not forget that it was conservatives who brought Hitler to power and supported him in becoming Chancellor. Socialists, on the other hand, were his main opponents, and once he consolidated power, he imprisoned them. Many prominent socialist figures were executed, and even "ordinary" socialists without political influence were arrested. My grandfather was one of them.

To drill into this a bit further: of course, I am oversimplifying to some degree. It's difficult to distill entire concepts into a message board post.

I was simply saying that identity is a huge part of the platform of the American left. Yet, they (if not you) are quick to dismiss conservative identity in favor of power. They do this because they see conservatives as the oppressors and feel justified in destroying conservative identity. However, the truth is that the political left has massive power and doesn't mind using the state to enforce its ideology. They don’t hesitate to use the power of institutions to do this.

People feel this and do not want to change. When you destroy their identity to force it, you will be met with resistance. It's almost ironic to me how quickly the American right has aligned itself with minorities as they have begun to share similar experiences. It’s also why these groups are growing together, not apart, despite what the political left is saying. It mirrors what was happening in Germany and Italy. The disenfranchised traditionalists (right) rise up against the agents of change (left). When one group is levying the power of the state, the other group has to follow suit or lose the culture war. The only important factor is what values are being preserved. 

The idea that we will always push toward freedom and egalitarianism is Hegelian. Historically speaking, it's not true, but I think we at least see that trajectory in liberal societies, as long as freedom, competition, and individualism are present. Societies rise and fall. Freedom comes and goes. It's an idea that needs to be preserved. This can only be done by creating a set of values and holding onto them. Traditionalist, if you will.

There is a significant part of the right that is pushing for more liberalism. It’s why you see people like Tulsi Gabbard, Dave Rubin (whom I’m not a fan of), and Joe Rogan more and more aligning with the right. If you got everything you ever wanted in a society tomorrow, you would become a right-winger. That change is also inevitable because it's impossible for any one person to know all of the needs of others.

There are also the Trump sycophants who would see him as king. That’s a minority of people, but I think you’re not wrong to call them out for being authoritarian. I do think you're wrong to cast blanket accusations against the right, though. There are American values that need preserving, including the idea that the President is not a king and the people should have power.

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