Quote:1.) From a purely Darwinian standpoint, the healthiest set of behaviors for any given organism are those behaviors that enable the passing along of their genetic material to the next generation and providing the best environment for their offspring to thrive.


Same Sex attraction hinders an organism from being able to pass on their genetic material.


We know that the most beneficial construct for the raising of offspring is the biological two parent household. '


2.) If you were born with a hand that was deformed, would you not look to have it made whole? If you were born with a cleft palot would you not seek to be made whole?


3.) Same Sex Attraction isn't the only intrinsic form of sexual attraction that deviates from the norm. There are men who cannot achieve [BAD WORD REMOVED] or arousal if the woman that they are with demonstrates any form of consent or enjoyment (The most extreme form of Sadism expressed my the Marquis De Sade himself.) Does that mean that we should look at Rapists as predators sent from on high? There are some men who cannot achieve arousal with a partner that has passed the age of puberty. NAMBLA would tell you that because these people have a sincere intrinsic desire that pedophilia is okay? There are some people who don't have the natural filter that makes nuclear family members sexually off limits. Does that mean that we lift up incest? There are some people that fantasize about dead people and dead things in order to achieve arousal. I know that i never fantasized about dead things when i was a young child. Does that Make Dahmer Bundy and the like beings of a higher calling?


Sexual addictions or compulsions are the hardest in the world to deal with, but that doesn't mean that just because they are intrinsic or sincere that they are to be both indulged and emotionally subsidized by society at large.


4.) To a certain degree we are all sexually repressed. I don't know how your marriage works, but I'm pretty sure you don't relieve yourself in public every time you see a woman's top open or her dress too short.


5.) Last but not least, the tale of two marshmallows. The marshmallow test is the single greatest indicator of the success of a child. You give the child a marshmallow on his or her plate and you tell them that if they don't eat the marshmallow for 20 minutes they will get a second marshmallow. It's a test designed to examine the ability of the child to manage their short term desires vs. long term gain. As the stewards of the planet its not only within our grasp but our responsibility to strive beyond our basic programming for the betterment of ourselves and society.

If there's one thing you are consistent with, it's providing responses to my posts which barely, if ever, touch upon what was being discussed.


This post just reinforces what I stated in my last post. Your moral filter prevents you from processing WHY a person could be gay or transgender without there having to be something more to it. Because, as you admit, your upbringing has TOLD you that being gay or trans is immoral or not right. So you pull in all this other stuff. Pedophilia, rape, incest, etc. and try to rationalize these as relative to the discussion. NOBODY is asking for these things to be normalized by society. It's a hollow argument you keep reverting to. You are capable (if you try) of formulating an argument (even one I will disagree with) without lumping gay or trans people in with the most despicable elements of society.


I argue there is a biological explanation why a consistent percentage of the world is gay or trans and the closest you can come to accepting that explanation is saying, "That doesn't make it right."


So you pull in all these other, unrelated bullet points.. You reference Darwin, but don't explain how come thousands of species exhibit bisexual or homosexual behavior. I can link to lions, rams, deer, pick an animal and I bet I can find you examples of them in nature doing the same exact thing you call immoral in humans.


Your story of being 14 and telling a female that you want to wait for marriage. That was a morality issue for you which animals (and many humans) simply don't deal with. I would argue your biology says YES but your morality says NO. The point being, the biological desire is there all along. Your morality (driven by your religious upbringing) repressed that desire as you could not have done that without feeling unclean or sinful. I'm not saying you are right or wrong, just that your biological makeup put you in a situation where you said.. I am straight. I do have desires to be physical with a woman. I'm just not going to do that right now.


That's all we are talking about. Making the self discovery of who/what you are.


When I claimed you were sexually repressed, it was something I suspected for a while which was validated by your recent statements. It doesn't mean that my marriage is such that I cannot find other women attractive and I am not a ball of id who feels the impulse to skeet on every woman I find attractive (man, would I need a good lawyer if that were the case). My point is, I can accept the natural attraction or desires I have (even the really far-fetched ones) without feeling they make me somehow morally inadequate.


Getting back to the actual debate. Why are people gay or trans? Is it biological? Is it a conscious choice? Is it a psychological issue?


I have presented some pretty healthy arguments that it is biological. I linked to multiple articles and studies to support this position. Your best defense of these is that it does not make it morally right. That is your limitation on being able to debate this on the same level. I am not concerned with what is morally right or wrong. Just what is or isn't. As I stated before, this is where I feel the root of your cognitive dissonance on this subject lies. You are not capable of dissociation between the biological fact and the moral implication. Which is why you persist in pulling in all manner of unrelated topics to try to challenge my position.


I argue a person IS just born gay or trans and some day, just like you made the self discovery of your sexual identity and sexual attraction, they make the same self discovery. If you dispute this, tell me how you can be so sure. Don't talk to me about pedophiles or Darwin. Address the point I make head on.


Again.. I am also able to pull from the first hand accounts of several gay and trans people, many of which who were raised within a church structure (I actually know two "preacher's kids" who are gay). People who struggled internally with the moral issues of their self discovery. Eventually they came to the realization that they are what they are. Some are still quite active in the church. Whereas you, as far as I know, have never had a meaningful discussion with a gay or trans person about the nature of why they are gay or trans.


So all distraction and unrelated falsehoods aside, why can a gay or trans person simply NOT be born that way?

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