Quote:If there's one thing you are consistent with, it's providing responses to my posts which barely, if ever, touch upon what was being discussed.


This post just reinforces what I stated in my last post. Your moral filter prevents you from processing WHY a person could be gay or transgender without there having to be something more to it. Because, as you admit, your upbringing has TOLD you that being gay or trans is immoral or not right. So you pull in all this other stuff. Pedophilia, rape, incest, etc. and try to rationalize these as relative to the discussion. NOBODY is asking for these things to be normalized by society. It's a hollow argument you keep reverting to. You are capable (if you try) of formulating an argument (even one I will disagree with) without lumping gay or trans people in with the most despicable elements of society.


I argue there is a biological explanation why a consistent percentage of the world is gay or trans and the closest you can come to accepting that explanation is saying, "That doesn't make it right."


So you pull in all these other, unrelated bullet points.. You reference Darwin, but don't explain how come thousands of species exhibit bisexual or homosexual behavior. I can link to lions, rams, deer, pick an animal and I bet I can find you examples of them in nature doing the same exact thing you call immoral in humans.


Your story of being 14 and telling a female that you want to wait for marriage. That was a morality issue for you which animals (and many humans) simply don't deal with. I would argue your biology says YES but your morality says NO. The point being, the biological desire is there all along. Your morality (driven by your religious upbringing) repressed that desire as you could not have done that without feeling unclean or sinful. I'm not saying you are right or wrong, just that your biological makeup put you in a situation where you said.. I am straight. I do have desires to be physical with a woman. I'm just not going to do that right now.


That's all we are talking about. Making the self discovery of who/what you are.


When I claimed you were sexually repressed, it was something I suspected for a while which was validated by your recent statements. It doesn't mean that my marriage is such that I cannot find other women attractive and I am not a ball of id who feels the impulse to skeet on every woman I find attractive (man, would I need a good lawyer if that were the case). My point is, I can accept the natural attraction or desires I have (even the really far-fetched ones) without feeling they make me somehow morally inadequate.


Getting back to the actual debate. Why are people gay or trans? Is it biological? Is it a conscious choice? Is it a psychological issue?


I have presented some pretty healthy arguments that it is biological. I linked to multiple articles and studies to support this position. Your best defense of these is that it does not make it morally right. That is your limitation on being able to debate this on the same level. I am not concerned with what is morally right or wrong. Just what is or isn't. As I stated before, this is where I feel the root of your cognitive dissonance on this subject lies. You are not capable of dissociation between the biological fact and the moral implication. Which is why you persist in pulling in all manner of unrelated topics to try to challenge my position.


I argue a person IS just born gay or trans and some day, just like you made the self discovery of your sexual identity and sexual attraction, they make the same self discovery. If you dispute this, tell me how you can be so sure. Don't talk to me about pedophiles or Darwin. Address the point I make head on.


Again.. I am also able to pull from the first hand accounts of several gay and trans people, many of which who were raised within a church structure (I actually know two "preacher's kids" who are gay). People who struggled internally with the moral issues of their self discovery. Eventually they came to the realization that they are what they are. Some are still quite active in the church. Whereas you, as far as I know, have never had a meaningful discussion with a gay or trans person about the nature of why they are gay or trans.


So all distraction and unrelated falsehoods aside, why can a gay or trans person simply NOT be born that way?

I never disputed the idea that same sex attraction was not intrinsic and sincere. Your position is that because it is intrinsic and sincere that it should be expressed and accepted as part of someone's truthor self.


I simply pointed out other forms of intrinsic sincere forms of attraction.


If new information, counter to the moral construct of two spiritedness, causes you mental stress then... You get the idea.

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