I honestly don't think uppers argument is that complicated/controversial.  

Off the top of my head the only franchise QB drafted in the 20-32 range over the last 15+ years is Rodgers.

Really?? Brees was 32, we can find Carr, and Jimmy G. in the early second, Wilson in the third. It's not as impossible as he makes it look.

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I honestly don't think uppers argument is that complicated/controversial.  

Off the top of my head the only franchise QB drafted in the 20-32 range over the last 15+ years is Rodgers.

Really?? Brees was 32, we can find Carr, and Jimmy G. in the early second, Wilson in the third. It's not as impossible as he makes it look.

Brees was the first pick of the 2nd round but pick #32 so you can count him if you want. 

Yep you can find franchise QBs everywhere. Just pointing how you rarely find good franchise QBs at that range in the draft. Nothing more.

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Really?? Brees was 32, we can find Carr, and Jimmy G. in the early second, Wilson in the third. It's not as impossible as he makes it look.

Brees was the first pick of the 2nd round but pick #32 so you can count him if you want. 

Yep you can find franchise QBs everywhere. Just pointing how you rarely find good franchise QBs at that range in the draft. Nothing more.

Interesting.

So it’s almost better to wait until round 2 for a QB than to select in the 20-32 range? I’ve never looked at it that way.

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Brees was the first pick of the 2nd round but pick #32 so you can count him if you want. 

Yep you can find franchise QBs everywhere. Just pointing how you rarely find good franchise QBs at that range in the draft. Nothing more.

Interesting.

So it’s almost better to wait until round 2 for a QB than to select in the 20-32 range? I’ve never looked at it that way.

Nah not at all. 

The range they are drafted doesn't determine their talent. It's just a trend that QBs drafted around around there don't work out.  

I suspect it's partly because if you are drafted in that range you are generally successful enough in college to warrant 1st round consideration but with big enough flaws that 2/3s of the league are willing to pass on you.   

Perhaps having to deal with the pressure of being a 1st round pick hurts? It's interesting because in theory all of those QBs from 20-32 are landing in much better situations, albeit possibly behind starters.

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Brees was the first pick of the 2nd round but pick #32 so you can count him if you want. 

Yep you can find franchise QBs everywhere. Just pointing how you rarely find good franchise QBs at that range in the draft. Nothing more.

Interesting.

So it’s almost better to wait until round 2 for a QB than to select in the 20-32 range? I’ve never looked at it that way.

Perfect solution. Trade back to the top of round 2.

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Not one of your listed players went late first round. What I find ironic, is you are trying to pound your point of quarterbacks drafted outside of the top 10 are crap . Meanwhile you continue to pump up your fourth round legend.

How is that ironic? Liking one of those long shot players who has already proven it is not even in the same realm as trying to find the next one.

Second, I said and many many more. That article said 6 of them were failed picks: Brandon Weeden, Johnny Manziel, Todd Marinovich, Tim Tebow, Jim Druckenmiller and Patrick Ramsey.

That means they are counting Josh Freeman, Brady Quinn, Jason Campbell, JP Losman, Kyle Boller, Rex Grossman, and Tommy Maddox as hits. I would not. Pardon me yet again for making the mistake of thinking people here would be trying to have a conversation in good faith instead of once again trying to nitpick around the corners of the point. I didn't realize you demanded an encyclopedia of evidence on a message board.

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Not one of your listed players went late first round. What I find ironic, is you are trying to pound your point of quarterbacks drafted outside of the top 10 are crap . Meanwhile you continue to pump up  your fourth round legend.

How is that ironic? Liking one of those long shot players who has already proven it is not even in the same realm as trying to find the next one.

Second, I said and many many more. That article said 6 of them were failed picks: Brandon Weeden, Johnny Manziel, Todd Marinovich, Tim Tebow, Jim Druckenmiller and Patrick Ramsey.

That means they are counting Josh Freeman, Brady Quinn, Jason Campbell, JP Losman, Kyle Boller, Rex Grossman, and Tommy Maddox as hits. I would not. Pardon me yet again for making the mistake of thinking people here would be trying to have a conversation in good faith instead of once again trying to nitpick around the corners of the point. I didn't realize you demanded an encyclopedia of evidence on a message board.

Oh man. On what planet are Losman, Boller and Quinn hits?

Yikes.

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I honestly don't think uppers argument is that complicated/controversial.

Off the top of my head the only franchise QB drafted in the 20-32 range over the last 15+ years is Rodgers.

My point was that it's hard to find them at any point after the top half of the first round or so not just late in the first. Several people think it's going to be as simple as keep Blake and draft his replacement to take over in 2019 and keep our window extended by having a cheap rookie QB leading the team.

I am pointing out that the stats would say that is a much longer shot than a lot of people think. If you are wanting the odds to look palatable you are going to have to start being extremely lenient in who you count as long term starters, as that article did.

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How is that ironic? Liking one of those long shot players who has already proven it is not even in the same realm as trying to find the next one.

Second, I said and many many more. That article said 6 of them were failed picks: Brandon Weeden, Johnny Manziel, Todd Marinovich, Tim Tebow, Jim Druckenmiller and Patrick Ramsey.

That means they are counting Josh Freeman, Brady Quinn, Jason Campbell, JP Losman, Kyle Boller, Rex Grossman, and Tommy Maddox as hits. I would not. Pardon me yet again for making the mistake of thinking people here would be trying to have a conversation in good faith instead of once again trying to nitpick around the corners of the point. I didn't realize you demanded an encyclopedia of evidence on a message board.

Oh man. On what planet are Losman, Boller and Quinn hits?

Yikes.

Yeah thats a bunch of bad qb's haha.

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No Fun

A. J. McCarron won his grievance with the Bengals. He was awarded unrestricted free agent status plus back pay for the games the Bengals listed him as a non-football injury.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22456...free-agent

"I'm not the one -- the people that know me and truly know me, and my family knows -- it's not about the money for me. I just love playing football. Making the money is great but I just want to play. ... Whoever gives me an opportunity. I'm not going to chase the huge contract and be put in a situation that I might not be one hundred percent comfortable with just because it's a lot more money or whatever. I want to go somewhere where I can win and help the team win and we have a bright future together. I'm just super excited for this next chapter," he told the Enquirer.

I wonder if Bortles defenders can name one NFL franchise that wants him? Tell that team to make the Jaguars a trade offer right away. 

BTW, was this minor wrist surgery performed by the Jaguars medical staff, or did Bortles cut his own wrist to prevent being released? Everything we're reading and hearing is PR.

You can't be serious to suggest the Jaguars are being held over a barrel by Bortles and his agent about minor wrist surgery.  No self-respecting athlete who expects to command the respect and attention of the men in the locker room does something like that.

There's plenty of video tape to proof that Bortles played in the playoffs. There is no mention of a wrist injury in the medical reports is there prior to the three post-season games Bortles played in? If you want to argue that the playoff video shows a wrist injury, then Bortles' whole career has been played with a wrist injury.

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A. J. McCarron won his grievance with the Bengals. He was awarded unrestricted free agent status plus back pay for the games the Bengals listed him as a non-football injury.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22456...free-agent

"I'm not the one -- the people that know me and truly know me, and my family knows -- it's not about the money for me. I just love playing football. Making the money is great but I just want to play. ... Whoever gives me an opportunity. I'm not going to chase the huge contract and be put in a situation that I might not be one hundred percent comfortable with just because it's a lot more money or whatever. I want to go somewhere where I can win and help the team win and we have a bright future together. I'm just super excited for this next chapter," he told the Enquirer.

I wonder if Bortles defenders can name one NFL franchise that wants him? Tell that team to make the Jaguars a trade offer right away. 

BTW, was this minor wrist surgery performed by the Jaguars medical staff, or did Bortles cut his own wrist to prevent being released? Everything we're reading and hearing is PR.

You can't be serious to suggest the Jaguars are being held over a barrel by Bortles and his agent about minor wrist surgery.  No self-respecting athlete who expects to command the respect and attention of the men in the locker room does something like that.

There's plenty of video tape to proof that Bortles played in the playoffs. There is no mention of a wrist injury in the medical reports is there prior to the three post-season games Bortles played in? If you want to argue that the playoff video shows a wrist injury, then Bortles' whole career has been played with a wrist injury.

A.J. McCarron is not the answer. He couldn't even unseat Andy Dalton for God's sake! Let Hue Jackson have him. McCarron is only slightly better than Chad Henne.

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a 2-3 yr extention is not long term. the option year is 19 and franchise is estimated 25 so thats 44 mill over 2 years. with the 25 hitting in the second year. if you extend him for lets say 21 giving him a 2m raise for this years performance you are in at 42 m over 2 years with only 21 hitting the second year. i know its only a couple million either way but it eases the signing of other players in the next 2 years.

It's pointless risk. 

If he sucks this year you are paying a QB you don't want for another 2 seasons after that. All just to save 2 million? 

Relax. We have more than enough cap. We don't need to ease the signing of players. We are future proofed.

You keep saying that.

 I'm not so sure.

 I'd like to see your breakdown of the 2020 salary cap when the team is trying to re-sign Ngakoue, Jack, and maybe Fowler after they just made Ramsey the highest paid corner in the history of the league and they are also carrying a $30 million dollar per year quarterback? 

I don't see "future proofed" there.  I see money trouble. 

This is why I want to try to land a QB via the draft. So we can put off that big QB expense a few more years. 

Don't get me wrong. If the Jags find a QB that can prove his talent is worthy of sacrificing roster spots elsewhere - it's a good problem to have. I'm just not seeing any clear solution like that- none that are worthy of breaking up this defense.  A defense that you somehow think we can afford to retain along with a top tier QB contract in 2020. I just don't see it monetarily.

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It's pointless risk. 

If he sucks this year you are paying a QB you don't want for another 2 seasons after that. All just to save 2 million? 

Relax. We have more than enough cap. We don't need to ease the signing of players. We are future proofed.

You keep saying that.

 I'm not so sure.

 I'd like to see your breakdown of the 2020 salary cap when the team is trying to re-sign Ngakoue, Jack, and maybe Fowler after they just made Ramsey the highest paid corner in the history of the league and they are also carrying a $30 million dollar per year quarterback? 

I don't see "future proofed" there.  I see money trouble. 

This is why I want to try to land a QB via the draft. So we can put off that big QB expense a few more years. 

Don't get me wrong. If the Jags find a QB that can prove his talent is worthy of sacrificing roster spots elsewhere - it's a good problem to have. I'm just not seeing any clear solution like that- none that are worthy of breaking up this defense.  A defense that you somehow think we can afford to retain along with a top tier QB contract in 2020. I just don't see it monetarily.

I think we would both agree that our goal should be too keep our defense as one of the best in the NFL while also being able to re-sign our core young players right? 

Even with a 30 million a year QB our cap is specifically designed to be able sign our young stars. 

Take next year for example. Take Dareus's contract off the books and you have 10 million. Add on the cap jump and you have 20 million. Without doing much at all you have enough to pay Yannick an extension. 

Calais Campbell has been outstanding for us this year. Great guy, great player. In 2020 he will be 33 and have a cap hit of 17 million Vs 3 million dead cap if we let him go. Would be a prime candidate for release. A hard convo if he is still playing at an all pro level.


Barry Church will be 32 in 2020 and will have a cap hit of 7 million Vs dead money if we let him go. 

Malik Jackson will be 30 in 2020 , cap hit of 15 million , dead cap 1 million

These are just three examples. Obviously important parts right now but down the line our defense is specifically designed to be able to turnover the old players and sign the new ones.  

Myles Jack is a great talent and one of my favourite prospects ever.  As of right now I wouldn't call him a priority re-sign until we see him bump up to that level. Particularly given we'd have 20+ million invested in two off ball LBs alone. 

A lot with Fowler will depend on this upcoming year. Wouldn't be ready to call him a priority re-sign yet either.

---

A. J. McCarron won his grievance with the Bengals. He was awarded unrestricted free agent status plus back pay for the games the Bengals listed him as a non-football injury.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22456...free-agent

"I'm not the one -- the people that know me and truly know me, and my family knows -- it's not about the money for me. I just love playing football. Making the money is great but I just want to play. ... Whoever gives me an opportunity. I'm not going to chase the huge contract and be put in a situation that I might not be one hundred percent comfortable with just because it's a lot more money or whatever. I want to go somewhere where I can win and help the team win and we have a bright future together. I'm just super excited for this next chapter," he told the Enquirer.

I wonder if Bortles defenders can name one NFL franchise that wants him? Tell that team to make the Jaguars a trade offer right away. 

BTW, was this minor wrist surgery performed by the Jaguars medical staff, or did Bortles cut his own wrist to prevent being released? Everything we're reading and hearing is PR.

You can't be serious to suggest the Jaguars are being held over a barrel by Bortles and his agent about minor wrist surgery.  No self-respecting athlete who expects to command the respect and attention of the men in the locker room does something like that.

There's plenty of video tape to proof that Bortles played in the playoffs. There is no mention of a wrist injury in the medical reports is there prior to the three post-season games Bortles played in? If you want to argue that the playoff video shows a wrist injury, then Bortles' whole career has been played with a wrist injury.

A.J. McCarron is not the answer. He couldn't even unseat Andy Dalton for God's sake! Let Hue Jackson have him. McCarron is only slightly better than Chad Henne.

To suggest McCarron is no good because "he couldn't even unseat Andy Dalton" indicates your lack of knowledge.

McCarron was NOT allowed to compete for the Bengals' starting quarterback job the same way that David Garrard was NOT allowed to compete against Byron Leftwich for the Jaguars' starting quarterback job.

Marvin Lewis is tied to Andy Dalton the same way all NFL head coaches are tied to their "franchise" quarterback.

Who could forget Jack Del Rio starting Leftwich, fitted with an air splint on his surgical ankle, for the 2005 playoff game ahead of the quarterback who had all the momentum in his favor. 

NFL head coaches do screwy things like that because they are tied to their "franchise" guy. Since they win and lose together they also live and die together.

Bortles is tied to Gus Bradley, not Doug Marrone. Gus is long gone, amigo, and Bortles is not the elite, quarterback diva having his run of the franchise.

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LOL. McCarron. If he's an answer, I'm not sure what the question is.

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You keep saying that.

 I'm not so sure.

 I'd like to see your breakdown of the 2020 salary cap when the team is trying to re-sign Ngakoue, Jack, and maybe Fowler after they just made Ramsey the highest paid corner in the history of the league and they are also carrying a $30 million dollar per year quarterback? 

I don't see "future proofed" there.  I see money trouble. 

This is why I want to try to land a QB via the draft. So we can put off that big QB expense a few more years. 

Don't get me wrong. If the Jags find a QB that can prove his talent is worthy of sacrificing roster spots elsewhere - it's a good problem to have. I'm just not seeing any clear solution like that- none that are worthy of breaking up this defense.  A defense that you somehow think we can afford to retain along with a top tier QB contract in 2020. I just don't see it monetarily.

I think we would both agree that our goal should be too keep our defense as one of the best in the NFL while also being able to re-sign our core young players right? 

Even with a 30 million a year QB our cap is specifically designed to be able sign our young stars. 

Take next year for example. Take Dareus's contract off the books and you have 10 million. Add on the cap jump and you have 20 million. Without doing much at all you have enough to pay Yannick an extension. 

Calais Campbell has been outstanding for us this year. Great guy, great player. In 2020 he will be 33 and have a cap hit of 17 million Vs 3 million dead cap if we let him go. Would be a prime candidate for release. A hard convo if he is still playing at an all pro level.


Barry Church will be 32 in 2020 and will have a cap hit of 7 million Vs dead money if we let him go. 

Malik Jackson will be 30 in 2020 , cap hit of 15 million , dead cap 1 million

These are just three examples. Obviously important parts right now but down the line our defense is specifically designed to be able to turnover the old players and sign the new ones.  

Myles Jack is a great talent and one of my favourite prospects ever.  As of right now I wouldn't call him a priority re-sign until we see him bump up to that level. Particularly given we'd have 20+ million invested in two off ball LBs alone. 

A lot with Fowler will depend on this upcoming year. Wouldn't be ready to call him a priority re-sign yet either.

Just think about that play myles made vs pats if only the refs didnt blow it dead...

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No Fun

LOL.  McCarron.  If he's an answer, I'm not sure what the question is.

"Who gets Jungle Cat 2017's knickers all warm and tight?"

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

You keep saying that.

 I'm not so sure.

 I'd like to see your breakdown of the 2020 salary cap when the team is trying to re-sign Ngakoue, Jack, and maybe Fowler after they just made Ramsey the highest paid corner in the history of the league and they are also carrying a $30 million dollar per year quarterback? 

I don't see "future proofed" there.  I see money trouble. 

This is why I want to try to land a QB via the draft. So we can put off that big QB expense a few more years. 

Don't get me wrong. If the Jags find a QB that can prove his talent is worthy of sacrificing roster spots elsewhere - it's a good problem to have. I'm just not seeing any clear solution like that- none that are worthy of breaking up this defense.  A defense that you somehow think we can afford to retain along with a top tier QB contract in 2020. I just don't see it monetarily.

I think we would both agree that our goal should be too keep our defense as one of the best in the NFL while also being able to re-sign our core young players right? 

Even with a 30 million a year QB our cap is specifically designed to be able sign our young stars. 

Take next year for example. Take Dareus's contract off the books and you have 10 million. Add on the cap jump and you have 20 million. Without doing much at all you have enough to pay Yannick an extension. 

Calais Campbell has been outstanding for us this year. Great guy, great player. In 2020 he will be 33 and have a cap hit of 17 million Vs 3 million dead cap if we let him go. Would be a prime candidate for release. A hard convo if he is still playing at an all pro level.


Barry Church will be 32 in 2020 and will have a cap hit of 7 million Vs dead money if we let him go. 

Malik Jackson will be 30 in 2020 , cap hit of 15 million , dead cap 1 million

These are just three examples. Obviously important parts right now but down the line our defense is specifically designed to be able to turnover the old players and sign the new ones.  

Myles Jack is a great talent and one of my favourite prospects ever.  As of right now I wouldn't call him a priority re-sign until we see him bump up to that level. Particularly given we'd have 20+ million invested in two off ball LBs alone. 

A lot with Fowler will depend on this upcoming year. Wouldn't be ready to call him a priority re-sign yet either.

I'm not as eager to move on from Dareus as you are. If the team is able to draft a stud run stuffing NT type this year, then maybe...  Those are some big shoes to fill.   I'd try to restructure him for sure though. 
 I concede that Church and Campbell may be easy decisions by that point due to age. Not sure the two of them are really enough cap clearing to warrant a huge QB contract. 

I see Myles Jack as ascending and expect him to be a very difficult player to move on from talent wise. I think he took a big step this season and will continue to prove he's worth a big contract. I also would not assume he can't become the full time MLB. by the time he's due a new contract. 

The A-Rob contract - should there be one - will also be a factor in all of this. 

I realize there are ways to sign a QB in the neighborhood of $30 mil per year and minimize the negative impact to your roster. I'm just not sold that it would be worth it from a value perspective and I (obviously) would much prefer to see them draft a potential 2019 starter to preserve the cap. 

I wouldn't hate seeing one of the "top tier" free agent quarterbacks behind center in Jax in 2018 at all. I would hate watching young elite defensive talent walk in free agency. That's my chief concern and I feel like getting a few years out of a solid QB playing on rookie-deal-money would be the best fix.

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I think we would both agree that our goal should be too keep our defense as one of the best in the NFL while also being able to re-sign our core young players right? 

Even with a 30 million a year QB our cap is specifically designed to be able sign our young stars. 

Take next year for example. Take Dareus's contract off the books and you have 10 million. Add on the cap jump and you have 20 million. Without doing much at all you have enough to pay Yannick an extension. 

Calais Campbell has been outstanding for us this year. Great guy, great player. In 2020 he will be 33 and have a cap hit of 17 million Vs 3 million dead cap if we let him go. Would be a prime candidate for release. A hard convo if he is still playing at an all pro level.


Barry Church will be 32 in 2020 and will have a cap hit of 7 million Vs dead money if we let him go. 

Malik Jackson will be 30 in 2020 , cap hit of 15 million , dead cap 1 million

These are just three examples. Obviously important parts right now but down the line our defense is specifically designed to be able to turnover the old players and sign the new ones.  

Myles Jack is a great talent and one of my favourite prospects ever.  As of right now I wouldn't call him a priority re-sign until we see him bump up to that level. Particularly given we'd have 20+ million invested in two off ball LBs alone. 

A lot with Fowler will depend on this upcoming year. Wouldn't be ready to call him a priority re-sign yet either.

I'm not as eager to move on from Dareus as you are. If the team is able to draft a stud run stuffing NT type this year, then maybe...  Those are some big shoes to fill.   I'd try to restructure him for sure though. 
 I concede that Church and Campbell may be easy decisions by that point due to age. Not sure the two of them are really enough cap clearing to warrant a huge QB contract. 

I see Myles Jack as ascending and expect him to be a very difficult player to move on from talent wise. I think he took a big step this season and will continue to prove he's worth a big contract. I also would not assume he can't become the full time MLB. by the time he's due a new contract. 

The A-Rob contract - should there be one - will also be a factor in all of this. 

I realize there are ways to sign a QB in the neighborhood of $30 mil per year and minimize the negative impact to your roster. I'm just not sold that it would be worth it from a value perspective and I (obviously) would much prefer to see them draft a potential 2019 starter to preserve the cap. 

I wouldn't hate seeing one of the "top tier" free agent quarterbacks behind center in Jax in 2018 at all. I would hate watching young elite defensive talent walk in free agency. That's my chief concern and I feel like getting a few years out of a solid QB playing on rookie-deal-money would be the best fix.

This all hinges on actually hitting on the rookie QB. Which is probably the most difficult task in all of football and possibly sports. If the Jags do hit on the rookie QB, this team becomes the Seattle Seahawks before Russ signed his deal. If they miss? This is the Texans with Savage.

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I'm not as eager to move on from Dareus as you are. If the team is able to draft a stud run stuffing NT type this year, then maybe...  Those are some big shoes to fill.   I'd try to restructure him for sure though. 
 I concede that Church and Campbell may be easy decisions by that point due to age. Not sure the two of them are really enough cap clearing to warrant a huge QB contract. 

I see Myles Jack as ascending and expect him to be a very difficult player to move on from talent wise. I think he took a big step this season and will continue to prove he's worth a big contract. I also would not assume he can't become the full time MLB. by the time he's due a new contract. 

The A-Rob contract - should there be one - will also be a factor in all of this. 

I realize there are ways to sign a QB in the neighborhood of $30 mil per year and minimize the negative impact to your roster. I'm just not sold that it would be worth it from a value perspective and I (obviously) would much prefer to see them draft a potential 2019 starter to preserve the cap. 

I wouldn't hate seeing one of the "top tier" free agent quarterbacks behind center in Jax in 2018 at all. I would hate watching young elite defensive talent walk in free agency. That's my chief concern and I feel like getting a few years out of a solid QB playing on rookie-deal-money would be the best fix.

This all hinges on actually hitting on the rookie QB. Which is probably the most difficult task in all of football and possibly sports. If the Jags do hit on the rookie QB, this team becomes the Seattle Seahawks before Russ signed his deal. If they miss? This is the Texans with Savage.

I'm aware it's not automatic. But we are talking about landing a QB capable of playing as well as Bortles - but hopefully better.  (the team is built to win with solid QB play - it doesn't have to have a super star behind center)
 I do not agree that this ^ is the most difficult task in football. I also believe it is absolutely worth trying - especially with the one year option on Bortles. 

I hope they draft a guy before round four even if they do sign a big money free agent QB.  Not developing talent at the position right now would be foolhardy.

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