https://twitter.com/Pat_Thorman/status/9...12065?s=19

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https://twitter.com/Pat_Thorman/status/9...12065?s=19

HES GOT ELITE ARM TALENT THOUGH!

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The scary thing about Allen's accuracy issues is not knowing how much was because he played with presumably inferior talent at Wyoming, possibly substandard coaching at Wyoming, or whether he is just naturally inaccurate...like a glorified Jonathan Quinn.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

https://twitter.com/Pat_Thorman/status/9...12065?s=19

HES GOT ELITE ARM TALENT THOUGH!

AGREE!  

Terrible against pressure ✓
Terrible accuracy ✓
Bad production against bad teams ✓
Turnover prone ✓ 
Struggled in a weak conference ✓  

Has to be the best QB in the class.

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The scary thing about Allen's accuracy issues is not knowing how much was because he played with presumably inferior talent at Wyoming, possibly substandard coaching at Wyoming, or whether he is just naturally inaccurate...like a glorified Jonathan Quinn.

He had 4 NFL players on offense last season and still had terrible accuracy. His WRs had amongst the lowest drop rate for draft eligible QBs. 

He does have some beautiful throws at his disposal but more often than not he's all over the place. Even on the throws he makes his placement is brutal.  

Just a naturally inaccurate player.

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Only time will tell, not amateur draftnicks - like the ones who blew it on Goff over Wentz, Bridgewater over everybody, etc, etc...

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"You do your own thing in your own time. You should be proud."

LOL

All of you Allen-doubters have me second-guessing myself a little bit, but I still lean toward it being a good gamble.
I'll try to watch another cut-up or two and circle back on my take.

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Only time will tell, not amateur draftnicks - like the ones who blew it on Goff over Wentz, Bridgewater over everybody, etc, etc...

Apart from be tall and have a strong arm, what traits do you see that leads you to believe Allen will be a good NFL QB?

I'm just intrigued in what others see of him.

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https://twitter.com/Pat_Thorman/status/9...12065?s=19

Look at Luke Falk posting an impressive fourth place on this list. Lamar Jackson too. I still like Lamar.

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'02

Only time will tell, not amateur draftnicks - like the ones who blew it on Goff over Wentz, Bridgewater over everybody, etc, etc...

Apart from be tall and have a strong arm, what traits do you see that leads you to believe Allen will be a good NFL QB?  

I'm just intrigued in what others see of him.

Again, his deficiencies are coachable, as opposed to a guy like Lauletta.

He doesn't have much experience at the position, making him a great candidate for a team that doesn't have a day 1 need to start him.

If you can't make all the throws, or struggle at some of them, you're a limiting QB.  He's certainly not that guy.  He's also not a QB that will struggle to execute an NFL playbook.

I like Mayfield as much as any QB in the class, but his height is concerning.  I think he can play around it like Russel Wilson.  But that keeps him from being "can't miss."

I don't think any of these QBs are "can't miss," but I think some consider the top of this class as that.  That's why I also think Allen may surprise some.  I don't see any of these rookie QBs without challenges first year.

Accuracy = footwork.  Very fixable.

If we're looking for a backup to groom into a future starter, we've got only a couple choices.  Wait and see if Rudolph or Jackson are available at 29, or possibly move up to get Allen (unless someone takes him early.)  I think Allen is a better talent than the others, but I'm not opposed to waiting on the others.  I just believe that if we truly value Allen and there's a chance to get him, we'd have to move up to do it.  I see Rudolph and Jackson being longer shots to become something more than a backup or bridge at best.  I see Allen with more potential than that.  There are no guarantees with anybody.  Just look at the clots and their "HOF" QB who hasn't thrown a pass in who knows how long.

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"You do your own thing in your own time. You should be proud."

https://twitter.com/Pat_Thorman/status/9...12065?s=19

Mason Rudolph looking better and better.

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Apart from be tall and have a strong arm, what traits do you see that leads you to believe Allen will be a good NFL QB?  

I'm just intrigued in what others see of him.

Again, his deficiencies are coachable, as opposed to a guy like Lauletta.

He doesn't have much experience at the position, making him a great candidate for a team that doesn't have a day 1 need to start him.

If you can't make all the throws, or struggle at some of them, you're a limiting QB.  He's certainly not that guy.  He's also not a QB that will struggle to execute an NFL playbook.

I like Mayfield as much as any QB in the class, but his height is concerning.  I think he can play around it like Russel Wilson.  But that keeps him from being "can't miss."

I don't think any of these QBs are "can't miss," but I think some consider the top of this class as that.  That's why I also think Allen may surprise some.  I don't see any of these rookie QBs without challenges first year.

Accuracy = footwork.  Very fixable.

If we're looking for a backup to groom into a future starter, we've got only a couple choices.  Wait and see if Rudolph or Jackson are available at 29, or possibly move up to get Allen (unless someone takes him early.)  I think Allen is a better talent than the others, but I'm not opposed to waiting on the others.  I just believe that if we truly value Allen and there's a chance to get him, we'd have to move up to do it.  I see Rudolph and Jackson being longer shots to become something more than a backup or bridge at best.  I see Allen with more potential than that.  There are no guarantees with anybody.  Just look at the clots and their "HOF" QB who hasn't thrown a pass in who knows how long.

"If you can't make all the throws, or struggle at some of them, you're a limiting QB.  He's certainly not that guy.  He's also not a QB that will struggle to execute an NFL playbook."   

I see where you are coming from but I don't agree with it all. He has the arm to make all the throws yet consistently fails to complete basic tasks. That's limiting. So far we have seen him struggle to execute Bohl's pared down power scheme against poor opposition. He's one of the biggest projections mentally out of the QBs this year.  

 
"Accuracy = footwork.  Very fixable"  

Footwork is one of the easier things to fix. Accuracy is not. There have been no franchise QBs the modern NFL who had accuracy as bad as Allen in college. 56% makes him a massive outlier. Even Stafford hit 61% his final year in the SEC.  Favre and Marino had similar low accuracy in college but also played college ball in the 80s.  

The rest I don't have an issue with really. There aren't any "can't miss" QBs this year and history tells us there is probably a max of 2 actual franchise guys. Allen to me has way more barriers to success than the rest of the guys.  If he was a 3/4/5 round pick I'd be fine with him as a ball of clay you can mold.

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Again, his deficiencies are coachable, as opposed to a guy like Lauletta.

He doesn't have much experience at the position, making him a great candidate for a team that doesn't have a day 1 need to start him.

If you can't make all the throws, or struggle at some of them, you're a limiting QB.  He's certainly not that guy.  He's also not a QB that will struggle to execute an NFL playbook.

I like Mayfield as much as any QB in the class, but his height is concerning.  I think he can play around it like Russel Wilson.  But that keeps him from being "can't miss."

I don't think any of these QBs are "can't miss," but I think some consider the top of this class as that.  That's why I also think Allen may surprise some.  I don't see any of these rookie QBs without challenges first year.

Accuracy = footwork.  Very fixable.

If we're looking for a backup to groom into a future starter, we've got only a couple choices.  Wait and see if Rudolph or Jackson are available at 29, or possibly move up to get Allen (unless someone takes him early.)  I think Allen is a better talent than the others, but I'm not opposed to waiting on the others.  I just believe that if we truly value Allen and there's a chance to get him, we'd have to move up to do it.  I see Rudolph and Jackson being longer shots to become something more than a backup or bridge at best.  I see Allen with more potential than that.  There are no guarantees with anybody.  Just look at the clots and their "HOF" QB who hasn't thrown a pass in who knows how long.

"If you can't make all the throws, or struggle at some of them, you're a limiting QB.  He's certainly not that guy.  He's also not a QB that will struggle to execute an NFL playbook."   

I see where you are coming from but I don't agree with it all. He has the arm to make all the throws yet consistently fails to complete basic tasks. That's limiting. So far we have seen him struggle to execute Bohl's pared down power scheme against poor opposition. He's one of the biggest projections mentally out of the QBs this year.  

 
"Accuracy = footwork.  Very fixable"  

Footwork is one of the easier things to fix. Accuracy is not. There have been no franchise QBs the modern NFL who had accuracy as bad as Allen in college. 56% makes him a massive outlier. Even Stafford hit 61% his final year in the SEC.  Favre and Marino had similar low accuracy in college but also played college ball in the 80s.  

The rest I don't have an issue with really. There aren't any "can't miss" QBs this year and history tells us there is probably a max of 2 actual franchise guys. Allen to me has way more barriers to success than the rest of the guys.  If he was a 3/4/5 round pick I'd be fine with him as a ball of clay you can mold.

One thing I will say in favor of drafting Allen is that if you view him as a longer term project where you'd sit him the first year or two then make him starter, then it makes sense.

Here, Bortles was clearly better than Henne.  Bortles could easily start another year while Allen or whomever develops.

If we were stuck with a Henne caliber starter, there's no way any plan to sit a rookie like Allen would be sustainable..just like it happened with Bortles.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Again, his deficiencies are coachable, as opposed to a guy like Lauletta.

He doesn't have much experience at the position, making him a great candidate for a team that doesn't have a day 1 need to start him.

If you can't make all the throws, or struggle at some of them, you're a limiting QB.  He's certainly not that guy.  He's also not a QB that will struggle to execute an NFL playbook.

I like Mayfield as much as any QB in the class, but his height is concerning.  I think he can play around it like Russel Wilson.  But that keeps him from being "can't miss."

I don't think any of these QBs are "can't miss," but I think some consider the top of this class as that.  That's why I also think Allen may surprise some.  I don't see any of these rookie QBs without challenges first year.

Accuracy = footwork.  Very fixable.

If we're looking for a backup to groom into a future starter, we've got only a couple choices.  Wait and see if Rudolph or Jackson are available at 29, or possibly move up to get Allen (unless someone takes him early.)  I think Allen is a better talent than the others, but I'm not opposed to waiting on the others.  I just believe that if we truly value Allen and there's a chance to get him, we'd have to move up to do it.  I see Rudolph and Jackson being longer shots to become something more than a backup or bridge at best.  I see Allen with more potential than that.  There are no guarantees with anybody.  Just look at the clots and their "HOF" QB who hasn't thrown a pass in who knows how long.

"If you can't make all the throws, or struggle at some of them, you're a limiting QB.  He's certainly not that guy.  He's also not a QB that will struggle to execute an NFL playbook."   

I see where you are coming from but I don't agree with it all. He has the arm to make all the throws yet consistently fails to complete basic tasks. That's limiting. So far we have seen him struggle to execute Bohl's pared down power scheme against poor opposition. He's one of the biggest projections mentally out of the QBs this year.  

 
"Accuracy = footwork.  Very fixable"  

Footwork is one of the easier things to fix. Accuracy is not. There have been no franchise QBs the modern NFL who had accuracy as bad as Allen in college. 56% makes him a massive outlier. Even Stafford hit 61% his final year in the SEC.  Favre and Marino had similar low accuracy in college but also played college ball in the 80s.  

The rest I don't have an issue with really. There aren't any "can't miss" QBs this year and history tells us there is probably a max of 2 actual franchise guys. Allen to me has way more barriers to success than the rest of the guys.  If he was a 3/4/5 round pick I'd be fine with him as a ball of clay you can mold.

"...consistently fails to complete basic tasks."
This sounds like straight hyperbole to me.  If not, please elaborate using specific examples and explain why what it is you're referring to (you're very vague here) isn't coachable/correctable.

Again, footwork IS accuracy.  You can't say footwork is correctable but accuracy is not.  Accuracy follows footwork.

He's only got two years under his belt.  He does need work behind a starter.  Sounds to me his only issue is having someone dedicate to coaching his footwork and decision making.  From everything I've seen, his issues come from those two things alone.  Much easier to work on and fix those items when you're not asked to start day one.

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"You do your own thing in your own time. You should be proud."

"If you can't make all the throws, or struggle at some of them, you're a limiting QB.  He's certainly not that guy.  He's also not a QB that will struggle to execute an NFL playbook."   

I see where you are coming from but I don't agree with it all. He has the arm to make all the throws yet consistently fails to complete basic tasks. That's limiting. So far we have seen him struggle to execute Bohl's pared down power scheme against poor opposition. He's one of the biggest projections mentally out of the QBs this year.  

 
"Accuracy = footwork.  Very fixable"  

Footwork is one of the easier things to fix. Accuracy is not. There have been no franchise QBs the modern NFL who had accuracy as bad as Allen in college. 56% makes him a massive outlier. Even Stafford hit 61% his final year in the SEC.  Favre and Marino had similar low accuracy in college but also played college ball in the 80s.  

The rest I don't have an issue with really. There aren't any "can't miss" QBs this year and history tells us there is probably a max of 2 actual franchise guys. Allen to me has way more barriers to success than the rest of the guys.  If he was a 3/4/5 round pick I'd be fine with him as a ball of clay you can mold.

"...consistently fails to complete basic tasks."
This sounds like straight hyperbole to me.  If not, please elaborate using specific examples and explain why what it is you're referring to (you're very vague here) isn't coachable/correctable.

Again, footwork IS accuracy.  You can't say footwork is correctable but accuracy is not.  Accuracy follows footwork.

He's only got two years under his belt.  He does need work behind a starter.  Sounds to me his only issue is having someone dedicate to coaching his footwork and decision making.  From everything I've seen, his issues come from those two things alone.  Much easier to work on and fix those items when you're not asked to start day one.

He doesn't throw with anticipation on out routes, he doesn't throw with anticipation on MOF routes. His inaccuracy in the short game is consistent. He doesn't feel pressure well which makes every 3rd and long an adventure. He doesn't flow through his reads quick enough to take advantage of windows. He's turnover prone.
And I'm not sure where I said they weren't correctable or coachable. Just that they are inherently limiting for him as a QB.  And then you also said he'd have no problem running an NFL scheme, when all we have seen is him struggling to run a fairly simplistic scheme in college against bad opposition , albeit called "pro style" because he snaps the ball under center occasionally. He's a big projection, more so then the rest of the top guys.

Which NFL concepts do you see him executing well at the college level?


I'm afraid it's not as easy as that. Again, I didn't say it wasn't correctable, just that it's hard. Correcting footwork will help accuracy but it doesn't suddenly turn an extremely inaccurate QB into an accurate one. Release point, shoulder mechanics, elbow position, along with thousands and thousands of reps will help accuracy a lot too but even then it's not an easy fix at all, sometimes QBs just stay inaccurate. So while footwork is one of the easier fixes, that doesn't mean fixing accuracy is.   


Yeah agee, he's nowhere near ready to start. He's much more risky because of how much you need to fix with him.

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https://twitter.com/Pat_Thorman/status/9...12065?s=19

Look at Luke Falk posting an impressive fourth place on this list. Lamar Jackson too. I still like Lamar.

What about Rudolph?  Or does he not count?

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"...consistently fails to complete basic tasks."
This sounds like straight hyperbole to me.  If not, please elaborate using specific examples and explain why what it is you're referring to (you're very vague here) isn't coachable/correctable.

Again, footwork IS accuracy.  You can't say footwork is correctable but accuracy is not.  Accuracy follows footwork.

He's only got two years under his belt.  He does need work behind a starter.  Sounds to me his only issue is having someone dedicate to coaching his footwork and decision making.  From everything I've seen, his issues come from those two things alone.  Much easier to work on and fix those items when you're not asked to start day one.

He doesn't throw with anticipation on out routes, he doesn't throw with anticipation on MOF routes. His inaccuracy in the short game is consistent. He doesn't feel pressure well which makes every 3rd and long an adventure. He doesn't flow through his reads quick enough to take advantage of windows. He's turnover prone.
And I'm not sure where I said they weren't correctable or coachable. Just that they are inherently limiting for him as a QB.  And then you also said he'd have no problem running an NFL scheme, when all we have seen is him struggling to run a fairly simplistic scheme in college against bad opposition , albeit called "pro style" because he snaps the ball under center occasionally. He's a big projection, more so then the rest of the top guys.  

Which NFL concepts do you see him executing well at the college level?


I'm afraid it's not as easy as that. Again, I didn't say it wasn't correctable, just that it's hard. Correcting footwork will help accuracy but it doesn't suddenly turn an extremely inaccurate QB into an accurate one. Release point, shoulder mechanics, elbow position, along with thousands and thousands of reps will help accuracy a lot too but even then it's not an easy fix at all, sometimes QBs just stay inaccurate. So while footwork is one of the easier fixes, that doesn't mean fixing accuracy is.   


Yeah agee, he's nowhere near ready to start. He's much more risky because of how much you need to fix with him.

You make a lot of fair points.  It's ok that we disagree on what we feel his potential is.  He's the definition of boom/bust and our differing takes reflect that truth.

I'm not sure it's noted enough that he's only got two years under his belt at Wyoming.

To answer your question of NFL concepts he executes well, again - he can make all the throws asked of him in the NFL.  As good or better than any of his peers, and is the most complete in that regard.  That opens the playbook and doesn't force a coordinator to fit him to a system, or alter a system to fit him.  He's not like a Leftwich or other QBs who come from mostly shotgun or other non-standard offenses where you aren't doing NFL play action or not taking snaps from under center, doing standard drops, etc.

I think he's one of three we should really be watching.  If they don't think he can work for us, I'm fine with that.  I'd prefer to sit a guy like Jackson for similar reasons (he can be just as erratic) but offers a more dynamic element that could be taken advantage of by getting him on the field in creative ways.  I could also see us taking Rudolph as well.

The more this draws out this class reminds me a lot of 2011 class (only I don't see a Newton caliber at the top.)  They could all end up disappointing as they've all got their blemishes.  It could be a situation where no matter who we chose, we'll get a guy with an  Andy Dalton ceiling (or perhaps another Bortles) if we take one in the first round.  That may not be bad short term if he's needed as a bridge.  The good thing is, there's no reason to force start whoever we might pick day one.

I just don't think anyone else in this draft that will be taken behind these guys is a potential starter, and nothing more than a career backup.  That's only a value if we draft them as such, with a low pick and low expectations.  I certainly wouldn't expect a low pick to be able to take Blake's job, and heaven help us if that ends up being the case.

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"You do your own thing in your own time. You should be proud."

Only time will tell, not amateur draftnicks - like the ones who blew it on Goff over Wentz, Bridgewater over everybody, etc, etc...

Wentz was never a 56% passer. He was a career 64% passer in college so what’s your point? Bridgewater over everyone? Don’t remember that one but ok. Goff also seems to be doing just fine with actual coaching.

Allen isn’t accurate. And have you seen his tape against D1 teams? It’s pretty horrendous.

He very well may end up being a good NFL QB but drafting him solely based on arm talent seems like a bad move.

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Darnold is now, no questions, the #1 pick after his pro day. Made all the throws, deep, intermediate, dropping dimes, spinning it with velocity, throwing accurately on the move and run, no obvious hitch in his throwing motion.

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That Browns team will be loaded with talent when they get Darnold and Barkley. Not to mention the 2 picks at the top of the 2nd

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That Browns team will be loaded with talent when they get Darnold and Barkley.  Not to mention the 2 picks at the top of the 2nd

Somehow I picture the Browns ending up with the ultimate running team employing Tyrod Taylor and Lamar Jackson at QB with Saquon Barkley, Carlos Hyde and Duke Johnson at RB. They might even want a good run blocking TE with plenty of experience as a role model for their younger players. 

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Look at Luke Falk posting an impressive fourth place on this list. Lamar Jackson too. I still like Lamar.

What about Rudolph?  Or does he not count?

Sure, Rudolph counts too.

As for Allen ranking dead last, I'm really not surprised. I watched a few of his full games, and despite that strong arm of his, he's just not that impressive at all.

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'02