This is kind of the way I see it.

 

It seems to me a trade off between size and speed, and striking the balance between the two to allow for optimum effectiveness and versatility.

exactly seems it would be good for the way modern offenses are deployed.  The amount of nickel defense we see its about time a team uses it as a base particularly in this form.   


even then I see it having a run look and a pass look.  


for instance vs Run I would expect Cyp/Samples/Evans/Smith in the non FS safety roles with Poz/Smith/Skuta at LB  

 

on a passing down Colvin/Sample/Grats/Smith in the non FS safety roles with a Smith/Poz/Cyprien/Evans  at LB


Making Brown being the only one on the roster capable of being a true FS in the look.


(The whole way I would do the personnel is based off the offense going 3WR 1RB 1Te (pass)  or 2 TE 2 WR 1 Rb (run) )

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Go Jags!
*To stay up for atleast 2 years 3/6/17
2016 draft players I think will be good

• On the Fournette train, will be best back of his class 3/6/17
  
• Lattimore please,  Lockdowns on both sides would be nice
  
• Engram at TE and the MJD clone Samaje Perine
  

Tom Brady would eat it up.

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Tom Brady would eat it up.

Soooooo... the same as every other defensive scheme in the NFL?

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Soooooo... the same as every other defensive scheme in the NFL?

Pretty much.

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"Sucess Is Not a Goal, It is a By-product"

The reason I made the distinction is the premise that a bigger guy generally speaking is stronger at the point of attack than a smaller guy (the hybrid safety, in this case).


Schematically I get the point that an 8th guy in the box (generally a SS in those type schemes like 46) or the hybrid guy in this discussion has run responsibilities and will, on occasion, have to hold the point.


I don't think we are necessarily disagreeing here.

A thing to point out here that may change your thinking. If you notice the way the SS/WS are aligned, you'll see that they are positioned between the sideline and the bulk of the Offensive alignment. What this allows them to do is to force plays either towards the sideline or back towards the bulk of the Defense.


In doing so, the hybrid defender is either relying on a numbers advantage to help with the tackle or the player who never misses a tackle; the sideline.


In short, these players need speed and recognition skills over bulk and strength.

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I'm trying to make myself more informed and less opinionated.

Stop saying whatever stupid thing you're talking about and pay attention to all the interesting things I have to say!

A thing to point out here that may change your thinking. If you notice the way the SS/WS are aligned, you'll see that they are positioned between the sideline and the bulk of the Offensive alignment. What this allows them to do is to force plays either towards the sideline or back towards the bulk of the Defense.


In doing so, the hybrid defender is either relying on a numbers advantage to help with the tackle or the player who never misses a tackle; the sideline.


In short, these players need speed and recognition skills over bulk and strength.

So basically you are lining them up where they would if they were playing press coverage against a slot WR-outside the tackle box- but perhaps inside the X or Z.  A quick read and a swift reaction would theoretically cause the SS/WS to penetrate quickly enough to beat any pulling lineman and disrupt the playside action and keeping outside leverage?

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

So basically you are lining them up where they would if they were playing press coverage against a slot WR-outside the tackle box- but perhaps inside the X or Z. A quick read and a swift reaction would theoretically cause the SS/WS to penetrate quickly enough to beat any pulling lineman and disrupt the playside action and keeping outside leverage?

Exactly. Much like how an Offense uses a fullback to pry open a defense, these force players leverage the offense closed by taking away outside space.

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I'm trying to make myself more informed and less opinionated.

Stop saying whatever stupid thing you're talking about and pay attention to all the interesting things I have to say!

Then you'd definitely need a butt kicker at NT/DT to control everything inside.  As I think about it, it seems a 4-4 approach to run defense with nickel personnel.

 

Against a spread/read option type offense, I can see the value of this approach.

 

But I would still be wary about this approach against a more traditional offensive attack.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Then you'd definitely need a butt kicker at NT/DT to control everything inside. As I think about it, it seems a 4-4 approach to run defense with nickel personnel.

From what I gather, the two linebackers would be 3-4 ILB style linebackers. Both of them would be in the 260-270 pound range to be effective at stopping the run.

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Then you'd definitely need a butt kicker at NT/DT to control everything inside.  As I think about it, it seems a 4-4 approach to run defense with nickel personnel.

 

Against a spread/read option type offense, I can see the value of this approach.

 

But I would still be wary about this approach against a more traditional offensive attack.

ya a traditional Iform seems like the toughest thing for this formation to defend.  

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Go Jags!
*To stay up for atleast 2 years 3/6/17
2016 draft players I think will be good

• On the Fournette train, will be best back of his class 3/6/17
  
• Lattimore please,  Lockdowns on both sides would be nice
  
• Engram at TE and the MJD clone Samaje Perine
  

Then you'd definitely need a butt kicker at NT/DT to control everything inside. As I think about it, it seems a 4-4 approach to run defense with nickel personnel.


Against a spread/read option type offense, I can see the value of this approach.


But I would still be wary about this approach against a more traditional offensive attack.

ya a traditional Iform seems like the toughest thing for this formation to defend.

This is an issue that I was wondering about myself, but if you consider the personnel groupings that a modern NFL Offense will field, you can see that the Defense matches up with it very well. Let's consider the age old power running play, the "Iso". We'll go with the "22" package. When we see 22, we think about bears, but not that kind. We think B-E-R as in Backs, Tight Ends, and then Receivers. Since we see 22, we know that the Offense is fielding two backs, with one of them being a dedicated Fullback, a double TE set, and one Wideout / Wide Receiver. They align like so:


------------------------------R

------------------------------F

-----Z-----------------------Q

---------------Y---T---G---C---G---T---X

----------------E-----T--------N--------E

----------SS---------------------------------WS

-----------------------M---------W

-------C-------------------------------------------C

------------------------------F


With this Offensive set, the 4-2-5 Defense aligns so that the Safeties are playing at an even more shallow depth than the LBs, and that's by design. Since they are outside of the tackle box, to the Offense they are what's known as an Invisible Force player. This is because they are not a part of the Offensive Line's "count" when they are assessing who to block, they are assigned to either a Tight End, or a backfield blocker. MIKE and WILL are the protected Defenders here, because they are at depth and are essentially stacking behind the Tackle and the Nose, respectively.


For a typical Iso play off of the Right Tackle, the Offense wants to get the Fullback up to the LB level and use him to pry open a lane in the Defense. Due to this idea, that the FB will handle the LB, this allows the Offensive Line to double team the T and have one of the blockers slip off to block WILL. This leaves the Tight End to block E, the Center takes Nose and the backside Guard cannot pull because he is covered up by the Nose playing in his inside gap.


Now! When the Fullback crosses the LOS, he has to make a choice; does he take the nearest defender, the SS and overwhelm him with the block? Or, does he take MIKE and assume that the WS will not make the tackle? Keep in mind that if he blocks WS, then he is leaving the more powerful defender go untouched to the tackle. Not to mention, who is blocking WILL? One thing to keep in mind here is that it is very difficult to block a Linebacker in space. It is, quite literally, the "can you hit a moving target" problem.


Now ask yourself this, how many teams out there field a roster with two blocking Tight Ends and a fullback? I'm not all that aware of the answer to that because I'm really not all that inclined to go digging around all 32 team's rosters but I'd imagine that the amount is few and far between.


While every defense has a weakness, I feel like this one still provides the flexibility to match up against most any problem that the modern offense can throw at it. Provided that it is built with the proper players and coaches.

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I'm trying to make myself more informed and less opinionated.

Stop saying whatever stupid thing you're talking about and pay attention to all the interesting things I have to say!

we should totally change defensive schemes in the middle of the season

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we should totally change defensive schemes in the middle of the season

 

Why in God's name would you want to do that?

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I'm trying to make myself more informed and less opinionated.

Stop saying whatever stupid thing you're talking about and pay attention to all the interesting things I have to say!

Why in God's name would you want to do that?

I wouldn't.

We shouldn't.

 

I forgot the sarcasm font. My beef.

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Dug this up.  but with added pieces of Jack and Ramsey

---

Go Jags!
*To stay up for atleast 2 years 3/6/17
2016 draft players I think will be good

• On the Fournette train, will be best back of his class 3/6/17
  
• Lattimore please,  Lockdowns on both sides would be nice
  
• Engram at TE and the MJD clone Samaje Perine
  

Dug this up.  but with added pieces of Jack and Ramsey

 

I think, when you have a guy like Myles Jack who has the capability of playing either linebacker or safety, then when he is on the field you can call it a 4-3-4 or a 4-2-5.   It's both at the same time. 

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Isn't this nickel defense?

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Isn't this nickel defense?

 

Yes and no. Nickel just means that you have a third Corner / fifth Defensive Back on the field. While the 4-2-5 has five defensive backs, they are not used solely for coverage but more in a hybrid role.

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I'm trying to make myself more informed and less opinionated.

Stop saying whatever stupid thing you're talking about and pay attention to all the interesting things I have to say!

Yes and no. Nickel just means that you have a third Corner / fifth Defensive Back on the field. While the 4-2-5 has five defensive backs, they are not used solely for coverage but more in a hybrid role.

Think of it as a big nickel where a safety is playing nickelback.

---

Go Jags!
*To stay up for atleast 2 years 3/6/17
2016 draft players I think will be good

• On the Fournette train, will be best back of his class 3/6/17
  
• Lattimore please,  Lockdowns on both sides would be nice
  
• Engram at TE and the MJD clone Samaje Perine
  

I've seen a lot of colleges with this 3 safety set.

 

In theory we could do this... with multiple looks, jack and ramsey are versatile enough players.

We'd need Sample or Cyp to play well and Prince and House to play well in order to move these "chess pieces".

 

Gipson Ramsey and Cyp/Sample at Safety. Prince and House outside, with Smith and Jack at LB.

Rush Dline

 

or for more run support Gipson, Cyp/Sample, Jack at safeties with Ramsey and House on the outside Skuta and Smith at LB

Run Dline

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