it doesnt take 7 years to be good at football sorry :/


it doesnt take 3 to be not terrible either :/

Well... really it only takes 1 year to be good.

 

We see it all the time. From trash to flash.

Even if only for short spurts for some franchises.

 

it didnt take tyrod 5 years to be good at football, it just took him 5 years to be a free agent and be given the opportunity to start.

Tyrod isn't THAT good.... tbr...

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it didnt take tyrod 5 years to be good at football, it just took him 5 years to be a free agent and be given the opportunity to start.

 

So you know this because you saw him play so much those four years.

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So you know this because you saw him play so much those four years.

So do you want to assume he sucked since you saw him play so much in those four years?

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I only bothered to read the OP.

 

Mods, just go ahead and shut down the forums... Bullseye just killed it.

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PA Jags Fan
;
; Supporting from long distance

So do you want to assume he sucked since you saw him play so much in those four years?

Tyrod Taylor has thrown for 3,000 yards 17 passing touchdowns and 6 rushing touchdown interception. Those numbers don't scream franchise quarterback. Blake Bortles during his regression year has thrown 23 touchdowns 3906 yards 4 rushing touchdowns, one receiving touchdown comma and 15 interceptions despite not having much around him this past season. Your being ignorant right now defending someone that is a game manager at best.

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That's why I'm not sold on Trubisky.  He's Taylor without the added dimension of running.

 

Either would be a bridge QB at best, as we had with Garrard.

 

That's what Bortles is starting to look like, too unless he can show growth and not regression/stagnation.

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"You do your own thing in your own time. You should be proud."

Tyrod Taylor has thrown for 3,000 yards 17 passing touchdowns and 6 rushing touchdown interception. Those numbers don't scream franchise quarterback. Blake Bortles during his regression year has thrown 23 touchdowns 3906 yards 4 rushing touchdowns, one receiving touchdown comma and 15 interceptions despite not having much around him this past season. Your being ignorant right now defending someone that is a game manager at best.

Don't forget Tyrod has attempted 815 passes the last two years. Bortles has attempted 1230 passes the last two years.

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Don't forget Tyrod has attempted 815 passes the last two years. Bortles has attempted 1230 passes the last two years.

Tyrod Taylor have a legit running game too just like dak Prescott other young quarterbacks around the league. Unfortunately, Blake can say the same thing and that been the case since the moment he started a game as a rookie. Context goes both ways so let's be fair to Blake in this situation.

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Tyrod Taylor have a legit running game too just like dak Prescott other young quarterbacks around the league. Unfortunately, Blake can say the same thing and that been the case since the moment he started a game as a rookie. Context goes both ways so let's be fair to Blake in this situation.

Yeah that's my point. Goes both ways, of course his numbers won't be as good when he doesn't throw as much. What he has shown though is the ability to limit turnovers and to throw with good mechanics. That's the next step for Bortles if he's able to make it.

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Before I answer, I would like to alert Glock and the other readers that I am rearranging the order of his paragraphs because his statements and my responses will make more sense this way.  I will post the rearranged paragraphs verbatim, and my answers are, in no way, intended to take Glock's arguments out of context or in any way distort the plain meaning of his words.

 

 

Ugh were really gonna do this again.


Blakes best season was inefficient stat padding. He wasnt accurate, he didnt make good decisions, he was overrated by all of us. And for a second lets assume he gets back to 2015 for. 2015 blake is not winning playoff games against good teams. He still has to take an enormous leap forward as a QB to even be considered good enough to hang in the playoffs.

 

Referencing TC's press conference, PFT offers a summary of TC's thoughts thusly:

 

 

That would be improvement from quarterback <a class="" href='http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/9320/blake-bortles'>Blake Bortles</a>. During a Friday press conference, Coughlin said that there’s plenty for Bortles (and everyone else on the team) to improve in their own games, but said that any big jump will require better work on the offensive line.

“I think to improve the quarterback we have to improve the protection,” Coughlin said. 

Coughlin also said that he doesn’t think the team is helping Bortles “at all” if they can’t run the ball and noted that the team needs more than they got from the <a class="" href='http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/10311/tj-yeldon'>T.J. Yeldon</a>/<a class="" href='http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/6168/chris-ivory'>Chris Ivory</a> backfield combo last year. He said there have been discussions about adding a fullback to the offensive mix, something that fit with his general theme of building a tougher Jaguars team in his first season back in Jacksonville.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...rotection/

 

If this accurately represents TC's thoughts on the offense generally and QB play in particular, what are we to make of his comments within the context of Bortles' development?

 

 

 

Dante Fowler isnt an edge rusher. Its the reason he moved all around at florida. Its the reason we keep talking about putting him at linebacker. Theres zero reason to believe his ceiling as an edge rusher isnt very low.


Anyone who labeled clowney a bust after his second season let alone his first is a reactionary moron. He was dealing with a lot of injuries on top of being a rookie.


Vic was ACTUALLY an edge rusher in college. He can actually bend, hes actually athletic. Fowler isnt any of that.


 

(Emphasis added)

 

The idea that moving a player around is a sign of inability to rush the passer is troubling in that NFL history is replete with accomplished pass rushers  that moved around.  Lawrence Taylor was once a college NT and ILB.  In the NFL, he occasionally lined up at ROLB, ILB over the A gap, and LOLB.  Somehow I don't think it was because Bill Parcells and Bill Belicheck thought he wasn't able to rush the passer.  Howie Long made the Pro Bowl at RDE, LDE and DT over the course of his career.  I'm sure opposing linemen found it shocking to learn it was because he couldn't rush the passer. Charles Haley was obviously another non pass rushing stiff, since at various points in his NFL career, he has rushed from ROLB, RDE, and LDE. Were Buddy Ryan alive today I'm almost positive he would blink dumbly at the thought occasionally rushing Reggie White from DT, in addition to his usual LDE was to compensate for his inability to rush the passer.  Jevon Kearse, a predecessor of Fowler's at the University of Florida, played at least two positions between Florida and the NFL-LB and DE.  Sound familiar?  I'm sure he was also a deficient pass rusher.  For that matter, Jadeveon Clowney was moved from college DE to NFL ROLB and then back to RDE.  I'm sure these decisions were made-after they decided to draft him with the #1 pick in the draft-because they felt he couldn't rush the passer.  Vic Beasley, the guy you tout as having the athleticism to bend, etc., played with his hand on the ground at Clemson.  In Atlanta, he led the league in sacks this year, despite the fact his coaches felt he couldn't rush the passer, as evidenced by them playing him at LB and with his hand in the dirt.

 

Speaking of Clowney, you label those prematurely labeling him a bust as "morons" because he dealt with injuries.  I guess the injury explanation doesn't apply to Fowler and his torn ACL in his rookie season, the first of his two NFL seasons.

 

 

And for one final time can we not compare him to JJ/Clowney/Beasley.

JJ is a 3-4 end, him just having 5 sacks his first year isn't indicative of failure I have no idea who told you that. Him exploding for the numbers he currently does doesnt change the fact that 5 sacks for a rookie 3-4 end is objectively good.

I did not offer a J.J.Watt comparison to suggest that 5 sacks for a 3-4 DE is per se bad, but to illustrate that Watt's career shows that a 3rd year player can be much better than the player he was the first year.

 

 

 

Draft and develop is cool, its a tried and sometimes true formula thats been in place for ever but I wanna say this and I think its really important


*NOT EVERYONE HAS UNLIMITED UPSIDE*


Sometimes guys dont get better. Sometimes guys dont become what theyre supposed to be. Sometimes all the coaching in the world cant make a guy better than what he is. Its not that serious. Its not that big of a deal. Blake isnt good at football. Fowler isnt going to be some 15 sack a year von miller guy. Were bad at drafting. Its just the reality of our situation.

 

No, not everyone has unlimited upside.  I have no problem with that statement.

 

My question is how do you determine the ceiling of a player without giving him the coaching and time to develop?  The consensus when Fowler was drafted was that he was a top ten, if not top 5 pick.  What did you see in the one year post ACL, Gus coached season he had for you to know definitively any more time spent on Fowler is wasted?

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Ugh were really gonna do this again.


Blakes best season was inefficient stat padding. He wasnt accurate, he didnt make good decisions, he was overrated by all of us. And for a second lets assume he gets back to 2015 for. 2015 blake is not winning playoff games against good teams. He still has to take an enormous leap forward as a QB to even be considered good enough to hang in the playoffs.


Dante Fowler isnt an edge rusher. Its the reason he moved all around at florida. Its the reason we keep talking about putting him at linebacker. Theres zero reason to believe his ceiling as an edge rusher isnt very low.


And for one final time can we not compare him to JJ/Clowney/Beasley.

JJ is a 3-4 end, him just having 5 sacks his first year isn't indicative of failure I have no idea who told you that. Him exploding for the numbers he currently does doesnt change the fact that 5 sacks for a rookie 3-4 end is objectively good.


Anyone who labeled clowney a bust after his second season let alone his first is a reactionary moron. He was dealing with a lot of injuries on top of being a rookie.


Vic was ACTUALLY an edge rusher in college. He can actually bend, hes actually athletic. Fowler isnt any of that.


Draft and develop is cool, its a tried and sometimes true formula thats been in place for ever but I wanna say this and I think its really important


*NOT EVERYONE HAS UNLIMITED UPSIDE*


Sometimes guys dont get better. Sometimes guys dont become what theyre supposed to be. Sometimes all the coaching in the world cant make a guy better than what he is. Its not that serious. Its not that big of a deal. Blake isnt good at football. Fowler isnt going to be some 15 sack a year von miller guy. Were bad at drafting. Its just the reality of our situation.

lol, perfect example

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I absolutely agree with the OP's point, if you didn't have to develop rookies then why have position coaches, learning football takes an entire career.  I think this where the 'prime years' term comes from, keeping your physical abilities while learning enough about your position to play at a fantastic level.

 

Though I do think that regressing can throw a wrench in the development scheme: Did you have one lucky good year, or was it one unlucky bad year.  I think Blake will have to prove that point.  In the development curve you'd like each future year better than the last.

 

This is absolutely a fair point.  Regression increases doubt. 

 

But whether you attribute the bulk of his 2015 success to garbage time or not (and there is indicia such analysis is exaggeration), it is beyond dispute that season represents progress from his rookie year.  Conversely, 2016 represents regression.  Given that TC identified any number of offensive deficiencies outside of QB that impacted Bortles' development/production, I'd say Bortles deserves the chance to be given the reins with fewer offensive deficiencies.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

I don't know if development is extinct, as much as lack of college development has caused NFL scouts/clubs to have to take talent over readiness.

 

College coaches more concerned with winning by lining up the more talented athletes rather than focus on their NFL preparedness.

 

The college incentive/goal is to win, not NFL placement.

 

IMO, it's something that's "trickled up" from the lower ranks.  I think long term projections are more difficult to make as talent is high and preparedness has dropped.

I think I get what you are saying, but I want to be sure.

 

Can you think of a non QB that exemplifies your closing point?

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

I think the stellar rookie years of guys like Ezekiel Elliot, Dak Prescott, Cam Newton, etc. make it really hard to be patient on guys.  

I agree to a point, but there have always been immediate impact rookies, long before this group you mentioned here.

 

(Of course, in the absence of the internet and the abundance of my then youth, it's entirely possible fans have always been impatient when it came to rookie development and I just didn't know/realize it.)

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Draft and develop still holds true but 1) It dependent on as good solid coaching in place, which we have not had and 2) Us as fans can only judge the player development based on what we see in games.


We don't get to see the hours of slog they might put in on mechanics, technique or learning their craft.


So from our perspective we are more focused on results, not the process that goes into the results. When I look at Bortles this year I see a QB that struggled to throw the ball and had terrible mechanics, I can't think of ever seeing a QB that struggled to throw the ball and had mechanics like that in year 3 of being in the NFL who developed into a good QB. I hope he does and its entirely possible that he can, it just doesn't look likely right now.


Mentioned it in another post but Bortles has been in California for the past week throwing and working out so he is taking it all seriously, which is good to here in a sense.

Excellent points.

 

I will say that ultimately, what the player does in games is all that ultimately matters.

 

I think back to that classic Allen Iverson press conference where he states "We talkin' about practice."  Aside from being good for a chuckle, I think it is instructive.  I have no doubt there are plenty of players who go all out in practice and contribute nothing during games.  I'm also sure thee are talented players who have occasionally loafed during practice who excelled in games (Lawrence Taylor).  Guess who the fans and coaches want on their teams more.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

I am with you dude. Not giving up on Fowler yet. It's too early. Bortles has this year to get it done though. And I think that's more than fair with it being his 4th NFL season. 

Agreed completely, especially since the team is in win now mode, and Coughlin has identified several offensive deficiencies that negatively impacted Bortles performance.  Assuming TC and Caldwell adequately address those deficiencies, I can't see how Bortles is getting more than this year without showing progress.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Clearly, there is a huge gap between what great coaching staffs (i.e. Patriots) do with players and what other teams (i.e. Jaguars) do regarding developing players.  The Pats (and other teams) do a great job of making something out of nothing or squeezing every ounce of production out of potential.  The Jags have been horrible lately in that area.

 

There is a lot of value in "coaching 'em up."

 

I also think this ties into what culture is within an organization.  The Pats for example, have a team first philosophy.  If you're a player just looking to get paid then they let you walk.  Aside from Brady, most of their players could be considered above average or average but not "superstars."  But they have a team full of above average players that are all into playing like a team.  This is what breeds championships, obviously.

Absolutely, coaching and culture impact player development.

 

Being able to identify players who fit within these paradigms is key-and difficult.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

No one is saying not to draft and develop. Even the harshest critics of Bortles and Fowler, such as myself, aren't calling for them to be cut. But to stand pat on bad years and expect leaps and bounds development is foolhardy. We are doing that with Bortles, hopefully we don't do that with Dante. They don't have to be handed starting jobs to develop. 

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I think there is still some hope for both, but I call it as it is, both were bad/mediocre this past season.

 

I am willing to give Bortles 1 more year and 2 for Fowler

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I am a fan, not a cheerleader.

No one is saying not to draft and develop. Even the harshest critics of Bortles and Fowler, such as myself, aren't calling for them to be cut. But to stand pat on bad years and expect leaps and bounds development is foolhardy. We are doing that with Bortles, hopefully we don't do that with Dante. They don't have to be handed starting jobs to develop. 

 

I can agree if the failure to develop lies solely within the player.

 

But TC himself said there were offensive deficiencies (OL inability to protect, inability to run the ball) that adversely impacted Bortles performance.

 

If the team is sticking with Bortles at least this year, I don't think it is standing pat on bad years, as evidenced by Bortles going back to California to work with the coaches, after being told not to last year, and Coughlin already addressing OL and presumably TE.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!