Meh. Depends on which OT it is and at 20 you could be in position to take the best OG in the draft but that's probably way too damn high and a reach there with other positions available.

Trust your draft board. Trust the process. A WR that can take the top off a defense and compliment Chark could pay just as much dividends in this offense. And a star player on defense that creates turnovers every other week or gets this defense off the field on 3rd downs could be just as viable to the offense in general.

I understand your philosophy of BAP, but we’re at the point in this franchise where we literally need to force draft O-Lineman. Minshew will 100% fail if our line doesn’t improve from last season. As long as we’re not missing out on a generational talent at QB (Which we’re most likely not) I say draft o line.

It's not a case of BAP Vs. Need. It's all about how they perceive the class in general and where the value each player at each position. I am just making a case is all. If the top three OT's are off the board and they have an opportunity to take the best WR that they FEEL is the best one of this class, which, realistically with the 9th pick that very well could be the case. 

I am would be inclined to believe that they would factor that dynamic over the 4th best tackle. Unless they think like many other analysts this year that the WR position is deep and the OT class starts to nosedive in talent after you get past Wills, Wirfs, Thomas & Becton. 

No telling what these guys think.

---

"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

It's never time to pass up JJ Watt for Gabbert. That's where need gets you, passing up better players because you think you already have someone decent that plays the same position.

Or think Leftwich over Suggs then Reggie Williams over big Ben then mattloaf over Rodgers. Needs based drafting sets you up for long term failure while bap drafting sets you up for decades of success.

Except every bap pick has need included. They took Gabbert and Leftwich because they thought both would be high level franchise QBs, and thus the most valuable players in the draft. 

Don't mistake a terrible evaluation for them willingly choosing worse players due to need. They thought they were drafting the most valuable player at the time

What you're describing is just lying about what "best" means. The Jags have meant "highest rated player at a position we think we need" when the say "best" for years, but don't let them fool you, taking Reggie Williams was a dead giveaway, the guy was a second round prospect at best. I've noticed less of this problem from Caldwell, but the Fournette pick was unforgivably bad. Unless he comes out and throws Coughlin under the bus I'll presume he had at least some responsibility for that one.

---

Except every bap pick has need included. They took Gabbert and Leftwich because they thought both would be high level franchise QBs, and thus the most valuable players in the draft. 

Don't mistake a terrible evaluation for them willingly choosing worse players due to need. They thought they were drafting the most valuable player at the time

What you're describing is just lying about what "best" means. The Jags have meant "highest rated player at a position we think we need" when the say "best" for years, but don't let them fool you, taking Reggie Williams was a dead giveaway, the guy was a second round prospect at best. I've noticed less of this problem from Caldwell, but the Fournette pick was unforgivably bad. Unless he comes out and throws Coughlin under the bus I'll presume he had at least some responsibility for that one.

It's so odd when people try to connect dots with "the Jags" between now and FOUR front office regimes in the past. 
Makes little sense to compare Shack Harris' selection of Williams to anything done by Gene, Dave, or the Coghlin/Caldwell conglomerate.  

Also - the Fournette pick has Coughlin's signature all over it. 

Also - There isn't a living, breathing general manager on this planet that adheres to your concept of pure BAP. 
It's a fairy tale. Need is always considered unless the top guy on your board aligns with need and is available at your pick. 

As countless posters have explained ad infinitum, it's called "value."  And it's how the draft functions.

---

Except every bap pick has need included. They took Gabbert and Leftwich because they thought both would be high level franchise QBs, and thus the most valuable players in the draft. 

Don't mistake a terrible evaluation for them willingly choosing worse players due to need. They thought they were drafting the most valuable player at the time

What you're describing is just lying about what "best" means. The Jags have meant "highest rated player at a position we think we need" when the say "best" for years, but don't let them fool you, taking Reggie Williams was a dead giveaway, the guy was a second round prospect at best. I've noticed less of this problem from Caldwell, but the Fournette pick was unforgivably bad. Unless he comes out and throws Coughlin under the bus I'll presume he had at least some responsibility for that one.

Quick tip: if a team needs a QB and they take one in round 1 they automatically think he's going to be the most valuable pick available at that draft spot. You can argue till the cows come home if they evaluated the QB correctly (they often haven't!) but thats what the process is. 

Anyway, we've had enough discussions about this to know you aren't going to suddenly learn how this actually works by now

---

I understand your philosophy of BAP, but we’re at the point in this franchise where we literally need to force draft O-Lineman. Minshew will 100% fail if our line doesn’t improve from last season. As long as we’re not missing out on a generational talent at QB (Which we’re most likely not) I say draft o line.

It's never time to pass up JJ Watt for Gabbert. That's where need gets you, passing up better players because you think you already have someone decent that plays the same position.

Or think Leftwich over Suggs then Reggie Williams over big Ben then mattloaf over Rodgers. Needs based drafting sets you up for long term failure while bap drafting sets you up for decades of success.

Only Reggie Williams over Roethlisberger was a needs pick. Hindsight is 20/20 but the other three were generally considered to be BAP at the time. 

Baltimore, the team with the best draft record in that decade, also wanted Leftwich and was "stuck" with Suggs (who had great college record but a dismal pre-draft pro day).

The Eagles wanted to trade with us and take Mattloaf, while Rodgers was thought to be another Tedford QB who might never amount to anything in the NFL. There was a reason he fell to pick #24, and he might have never amounted to anything had he not been well coached in Green Bay. Mattloaf was a coach's son who had a sensational Senior Bowl in his only play at WR (also implying a willingness to work hard). You don't expect someone like that to have the character issues that destroyed his career.

Gabbert was rated by at least one draft guru (Mayock IIRC) as the #1 overall player in that draft. Nobody predicted  that he would fail because of cowardice in the pocket. Such a thing was never even considered a pre-draft factor until Gabbert made it a thing with the Jags. Watt was a 3-4 DE and not a premier edge rusher. His best season was 7 sacks, although he had a lot of tackles for loss.

---

                                                                          

"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

It's never time to pass up JJ Watt for Gabbert. That's where need gets you, passing up better players because you think you already have someone decent that plays the same position.

Or think Leftwich over Suggs then Reggie Williams over big Ben then mattloaf over Rodgers. Needs based drafting sets you up for long term failure while bap drafting sets you up for decades of success.

Only Reggie Williams over Roethlisberger was a needs pick. Hindsight is 20/20 but the other three were generally considered to be BAP at the time. 

Baltimore, the team with the best draft record in that decade, also wanted Leftwich and was "stuck" with Suggs (who had great college record but a dismal pre-draft pro day).

The Eagles wanted to trade with us and take Mattloaf, while Rodgers was thought to be another Tedford QB who might never amount to anything in the NFL. There was a reason he fell to pick #24, and he might have never amounted to anything had he not been well coached in Green Bay. Mattloaf was a coach's son who had a sensational Senior Bowl in his only play at WR (also implying a willingness to work hard). You don't expect someone like that to have the character issues that destroyed his career.

Gabbert was rated by at least one draft guru (Mayock IIRC) as the #1 overall player in that draft. Nobody predicted  that he would fail because of cowardice in the pocket. Such a thing was never even considered a pre-draft factor until Gabbert made it a thing with the Jags. Watt was a 3-4 DE and not a premier edge rusher. His best season was 7 sacks, although he had a lot of tackles for loss.

Spot on.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

So...Doug wants Minshew to go from an icon to a deity. Be careful what you wish for, Dougie.

---

I think if one of the top 3 QB's is there at 9 they won't take them. The smart thing to do would be trade back and pick up more assets. You then get a year to see if Minshew is the franchise QB moving forward and if not you have a chance at Lawrence.

---

I think if one of the top 3 QB's is there at 9 they won't take them. The smart thing to do would be trade back and pick up more assets. You then get a year to see if Minshew is the franchise QB moving forward and if not you have a chance at Lawrence.

I don't agree with that, if a big and ugly is there you grab him then grab a wr in the 2nd or 3rd.

---

I think if one of the top 3 QB's is there at 9 they won't take them. The smart thing to do would be trade back and pick up more assets. You then get a year to see if Minshew is the franchise QB moving forward and if not you have a chance at Lawrence.

I don't agree with that, if a big and ugly is there you grab him then grab a wr in the 2nd or 3rd.

Your mom is going to be sitting there at #9, guaranteed!

---

"I am only an average man, but by George, I work harder at it than the average man." - Teddy Roosevelt

What is there to improve? He had incredible numbers for a ROOKIE in the NFL. I’d be fine if he put up this same numbers on a 16 game scale (About 30TD, 10-12INT)

That’s already better than most QBs in the league

Should've stopped at the rookie point. He was a good rookie for sure.

He was far from already better than most QBs in the league. His 117 INT%+ is really the only area you can say he was above average, and as NYC pointed out if you include fumbles his turnover rate was probably average at best too. Otherwise, his YPA+, comp%+, TD%+, pass rating+ were all a little below average.

We definitely need him to take a big jump.

He led the entire league in deep ball passer rating (passes over 20 yards). Second was Russell Wilson and third was Deshaun Watson... Not bad company to he ahead of. I believe he was also above average in overall passer rating and QBR as well?

---

It's never time to pass up JJ Watt for Gabbert. That's where need gets you, passing up better players because you think you already have someone decent that plays the same position.

Or think Leftwich over Suggs then Reggie Williams over big Ben then mattloaf over Rodgers. Needs based drafting sets you up for long term failure while bap drafting sets you up for decades of success.

Only Reggie Williams over Roethlisberger was a needs pick. Hindsight is 20/20 but the other three were generally considered to be BAP at the time. 

Baltimore, the team with the best draft record in that decade, also wanted Leftwich and was "stuck" with Suggs (who had great college record but a dismal pre-draft pro day).

The Eagles wanted to trade with us and take Mattloaf, while Rodgers was thought to be another Tedford QB who might never amount to anything in the NFL. There was a reason he fell to pick #24, and he might have never amounted to anything had he not been well coached in Green Bay. Mattloaf was a coach's son who had a sensational Senior Bowl in his only play at WR (also implying a willingness to work hard). You don't expect someone like that to have the character issues that destroyed his career.

Gabbert was rated by at least one draft guru (Mayock IIRC) as the #1 overall player in that draft. Nobody predicted  that he would fail because of cowardice in the pocket. Such a thing was never even considered a pre-draft factor until Gabbert made it a thing with the Jags. Watt was a 3-4 DE and not a premier edge rusher. His best season was 7 sacks, although he had a lot of tackles for loss.

Wait, what?

---

Gabbert was rated by at least one draft guru (Mayock IIRC) as the #1 overall player in that draft. Nobody predicted  that he would fail because of cowardice in the pocket. Such a thing was never even considered a pre-draft factor until Gabbert made it a thing with the Jags. Watt was a 3-4 DE and not a premier edge rusher. His best season was 7 sacks, although he had a lot of tackles for loss.

Wait, what?

Pretty sure he was talking about Gabbert specifically and I think he's right. It's been a while, so I looked back over a few of the scouting reports of him at the time and the main concern appeared to be accuracy and the system at Missouri. Nobody mentioned happy feet. The only mention I saw about his pocket presence was on NFL.com which said "Late feeling pressure at times which neutralizes his very good mobility."

I don't see that being a problem with Minshew. He seemed to have great pocket awareness for a rookie and will no doubt get better.

---

I'm condescending. That means I talk down to you. 
Check out the Jag's Forum Alternative: Duval Football Fans.

Wait, what?

Pretty sure he was talking about Gabbert specifically and I think he's right. It's been a while, so I looked back over a few of the scouting reports of him at the time and the main concern appeared to be accuracy and the system at Missouri. Nobody mentioned happy feet. The only mention I saw about his pocket presence was on NFL.com which said "Late feeling pressure at times which neutralizes his very good mobility."

I don't see that being a problem with Minshew. He seemed to have great pocket awareness for a rookie and will no doubt get better.

I agree with the bolded. However, I would really like to see him get more consistent protection so he won't be tempted to abandon the pocket early. 
I won't say he did it often enough to constitute a "habit" late last season, but he sure looked like he didn't trust his protection at times and preferred rolling right to hanging in there for another tick of the clock. I don't want to see that become a bad habit for the promising young man.  

His natural ability to evade pressure and improvise will be an even greater asset if he's able to execute a higher percentage of plays on schedule/as designed. 

If Gruden and the (hopefully bolstered) O-Line find a way to make that happen, I don't think we're drafting QB early in 2021.

---

Wait, what?

Pretty sure he was talking about Gabbert specifically and I think he's right. It's been a while, so I looked back over a few of the scouting reports of him at the time and the main concern appeared to be accuracy and the system at Missouri. Nobody mentioned happy feet. The only mention I saw about his pocket presence was on NFL.com which said "Late feeling pressure at times which neutralizes his very good mobility."

I don't see that being a problem with Minshew. He seemed to have great pocket awareness for a rookie and will no doubt get better.

Maybe I misunderstood. I thought he meant happy feet/pocket precense wasn't scouted before Gabbert. Re-reading it I think he meant "Such a thing was never even considered a pre-draft factor (with Gabbert) until he made it a thing with the Jags."

---

Pretty sure he was talking about Gabbert specifically and I think he's right. It's been a while, so I looked back over a few of the scouting reports of him at the time and the main concern appeared to be accuracy and the system at Missouri. Nobody mentioned happy feet. The only mention I saw about his pocket presence was on NFL.com which said "Late feeling pressure at times which neutralizes his very good mobility."

I don't see that being a problem with Minshew. He seemed to have great pocket awareness for a rookie and will no doubt get better.

Maybe I misunderstood. I thought he meant happy feet/pocket precense wasn't scouted before Gabbert. Re-reading it I think he meant "Such a thing was never even considered a pre-draft factor (with Gabbert) until he made it a thing with the Jags."

No, you read my meaning correctly. I meant curling up into a fetal ball at the first sign of pressure was never considered a pre-draft factor because no one had ever seen that from a highly rated QB prospect before. That's a whole extra dimension from mere happy feet.

---

                                                                          

"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

Maybe I misunderstood. I thought he meant happy feet/pocket precense wasn't scouted before Gabbert. Re-reading it I think he meant "Such a thing was never even considered a pre-draft factor (with Gabbert) until he made it a thing with the Jags."

No, you read my meaning correctly. I meant curling up into a fetal ball at the first sign of pressure was never considered a pre-draft factor because no one had ever seen that from a highly rated QB prospect before. That's a whole extra dimension from mere happy feet.

Haha all right then. 

Not sure I'd classify his fear as that drastic compared to other similarly afflicted but point taken.

---

Maybe I misunderstood. I thought he meant happy feet/pocket precense wasn't scouted before Gabbert. Re-reading it I think he meant "Such a thing was never even considered a pre-draft factor (with Gabbert) until he made it a thing with the Jags."

No, you read my meaning correctly. I meant curling up into a fetal ball at the first sign of pressure was never considered a pre-draft factor because no one had ever seen that from a highly rated QB prospect before. That's a whole extra dimension from mere happy feet.

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt but looks like Senor was right then when he said "Wait. What?"

---

I'm condescending. That means I talk down to you. 
Check out the Jag's Forum Alternative: Duval Football Fans.