Knighton would most likely have re-signed. It saves the trouble of moving and Florida has no state income tax. You're just parroting speculation from the other defenders of the decision.

 

 

Marks is a red herring; Knighton plays the same position as Miller, not Marks. I'd rate Knighton and Miller as roughly equal in 2014-2015. But Miller had a terrible 2013. The other consideration is that players become fan favorites. Replacing a fan favorite with another guy who's no better is just [BAD WORD REMOVED] on the fanbase.

 

You have zero proof that he wanted to resign here.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Citing the Monroe trade as a plus because Caldwell was lucky to find good players still available in the late rounds is disingenuous. The trade was still two low picks for a starting LT. He could have gotten that and more by trading the 2013 #1 pick and keeping Monroe instead of drafting Joeckel. Of course Monroe wasn't suited to the zone blocking scheme, but it's better to use what your players are good at rather than dumping good players and replacing them to fit a new scheme. This year the offensive coaching staff seems to get that. The defense is still in la la land.


 

It was a mistake to keep better players because it would have resulted in more wins? Really, that's your position?

It's not disingenuous. 

 

Monroe may have been a starting LT, but he wasn't very good.  He was a middle of the pack starter at LT at best.  He wasn't going to command much under any circumstances, and he wasn't likely to stay when his contract expired.  Salvaging a couple of mid to late round picks for him wasn't bad, especially when those picks helped get us two of the best players currently on the roster.  Is Robinson looking like a better WR than Monroe was a LT?  Is Telvin Smith at LB looking like a better player than Monroe.  I say yes to both, and both look like they will be long term key contributors to this team.  I don't see how you can dismiss the proceeds from the Monroe trade when they resulted in two quality players.

 

Nobody was offering much of anything in trade for the top 2013 picks.  There was no QB, and it was widely considered to be a weak at the top draft class.  Heck, even Oakland only got a 2nd round pick trading down from 3 to 11 or 12 that year.

 

As to your closing statement, no that is not my position.

 

My position is that the players released/traded/jettisoned were not catalysts or difference makers on their sides of the ball, were older (in the case of Smith) and largely having them around would not be conducive to rebuiding.

 

None of those guys being on the roster stopped the team from being 2-14.

 

They were NOT indispensable.

 

EVEN IF (note emphasis) you could argue keeping Smith, Monroe or anyone else around could have resulted in another win or two in 2013, in my estimation, the extra win or two would not have been worth it.  We saw the price for meaningless wins at the end of the 2011 season, giving up Andrew Luck to the Colts. 

 

I pose the same question to you I posed earlier:  Is having ANY one or group of those guys from that 2-14 team worth not having Blake Bortles on the roster right now?

 

Which one of those players, straight up, would you trade for Bortles right now and why?

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Of the players Caldwell "let walk" -

Only Smith is even worthy of discussion IMO.

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Of the players Caldwell "let walk" -

Only Smith is even worthy of discussion IMO.

So you prefer evans and cyprien over landry and Lowery?

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Monroe is pretty bad and we'd have had to have gone into a bidding war for him or tagged him. I'm not sure about Smith, I like Poz and Telvin just fine. People cried on here about Cox being let go but he turned out well...

 

The only players I really wish we had kept are Rashad Jennings as he's a solid rotational back and Brandon Marshall as he was still on a rookie contract and would have been very good depth.

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So you prefer evans and cyprien over landry and Lowery?

Lateral move IMO. Made sense for new regime to suit their scheme. Landry and Lowery were decent re-treads in my eyes. Nothing special.

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So you prefer evans and cyprien over landry and Lowery?

Lowery finished 2 of his 3 seasons on the Jags on injured reserve, I liked him though and could have made a case for him sticking around . Landry is not a good player, no better than Evans or Cyprien and much older.

 

Caldwell said after the 2014 season he let too many vets walk in his first year - I agree and believe admitting to and not repeating your mistakes is a valuable quality to have.

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You have zero proof that he wanted to resign here.

 

And you have zero proof that he didn't, yet you stated it as a fact.

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"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

It's not disingenuous. 

 

Monroe may have been a starting LT, but he wasn't very good.  He was a middle of the pack starter at LT at best.  He wasn't going to command much under any circumstances, and he wasn't likely to stay when his contract expired.  Salvaging a couple of mid to late round picks for him wasn't bad, especially when those picks helped get us two of the best players currently on the roster.  Is Robinson looking like a better WR than Monroe was a LT?  Is Telvin Smith at LB looking like a better player than Monroe.  I say yes to both, and both look like they will be long term key contributors to this team.  I don't see how you can dismiss the proceeds from the Monroe trade when they resulted in two quality players.

 

Nobody was offering much of anything in trade for the top 2013 picks.  There was no QB, and it was widely considered to be a weak at the top draft class.  Heck, even Oakland only got a 2nd round pick trading down from 3 to 11 or 12 that year.

 

As to your closing statement, no that is not my position.

 

My position is that the players released/traded/jettisoned were not catalysts or difference makers on their sides of the ball, were older (in the case of Smith) and largely having them around would not be conducive to rebuiding.

 

None of those guys being on the roster stopped the team from being 2-14.

 

They were NOT indispensable.

 

EVEN IF (note emphasis) you could argue keeping Smith, Monroe or anyone else around could have resulted in another win or two in 2013, in my estimation, the extra win or two would not have been worth it.  We saw the price for meaningless wins at the end of the 2011 season, giving up Andrew Luck to the Colts. 

 

I pose the same question to you I posed earlier:  Is having ANY one or group of those guys from that 2-14 team worth not having Blake Bortles on the roster right now?

 

Which one of those players, straight up, would you trade for Bortles right now and why?

 

Monroe was a very good left tackle in 2012. He was not very good for the first few games in 2013 playing in an unfamiliar scheme that didn't fit him. If your point is that Caldwell made a good deal for Monroe after Gus ruined his trade value then I still disagree. His trade value hadn't been ruined to that degree. It was a poor trade value-wise. Caldwell didn't try to trade Monroe, he just accepted a sub-par deal from the first team that called.


 

Why do you keep bringing up Robinson and Telvin as if they were the other end of the trade?
 Caldwell got draft picks. Two low draft picks. The picks were used for Colvin and Chris Smith, not Robinson and Telvin. I'd rate Chris Smith as a warm body, and Colvin as the CB equivalent to Monroe, so Caldwell basically broke even. And either or both could have been drafted before Caldwell got the chance, there was no guarantee at the time of the trade that those players would drop to the middle of the 4th round.

 

An additional second to drop down to the 11th pick (what Miami offered for the very next pick) while keeping Monroe would have been a better deal. The Jags keep the LT equal to Joeckel and basically add a 2013 1st and 2nd.


And since you are arguing, based on the picks he got for Monroe, that Caldwell had foresight to know that the 2014 draft was going to be great, then he could have traded the pick used for Joeckel to (say) Baltimore for their 1st, 4th, and 5th round picks in 2014 (I'm sure he could have gotten a lot more, but for arguments sake ...). That would have resulted in the Jags having Monroe and C.J. Mosley instead of Joeckel, as well as whatever two players you want to claim we got for Monroe.

Finally, how do you know couldn't we have drafted Bortles in 2014 even at a lower slot? I hadn't heard of any other teams at the top of the draft wanting Bortles.


 

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"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

Monroe was a very good left tackle in 2012. He was not very good for the first few games in 2013 playing in an unfamiliar scheme that didn't fit him. If your point is that Caldwell made a good deal for Monroe after Gus ruined his trade value then I still disagree. His trade value hadn't been ruined to that degree. It was a poor trade value-wise. Caldwell didn't try to trade Monroe, he just accepted a sub-par deal from the first team that called.


 

Why do you keep bringing up Robinson and Telvin as if they were the other end of the trade?
 Caldwell got draft picks. Two low draft picks. The picks were used for Colvin and Chris Smith, not Robinson and Telvin. I'd rate Chris Smith as a warm body, and Colvin as the CB equivalent to Monroe, so Caldwell basically broke even. And either or both could have been drafted before Caldwell got the chance, there was no guarantee at the time of the trade that those players would drop to the middle of the 4th round.

 

An additional second to drop down to the 11th pick (what Miami offered for the very next pick) while keeping Monroe would have been a better deal. The Jags keep the LT equal to Joeckel and basically add a 2013 1st and 2nd.


And since you are arguing, based on the picks he got for Monroe, that Caldwell had foresight to know that the 2014 draft was going to be great, then he could have traded the pick used for Joeckel to (say) Baltimore for their 1st, 4th, and 5th round picks in 2014 (I'm sure he could have gotten a lot more, but for arguments sake ...). That would have resulted in the Jags having Monroe and C.J. Mosley instead of Joeckel, as well as whatever two players you want to claim we got for Monroe.

Finally, how do you know couldn't we have drafted Bortles in 2014 even at a lower slot? I hadn't heard of any other teams at the top of the draft wanting Bortles.


 

Monroe in 2012 was, in his best year, still a middle of the pack at best starting LT.

 

I keep bringing up Telvin and Robinson because even if they didn't spend those picks on Telvin and Robinson, the extra picks gave them the flexibility they needed to move up.  They received 4th and 5th round picks from Baltimore for Monroe, and used 4th and 6th round picks to move up to get Brandon Linder and Allen Robinson, and allowed them to pick Telvin Smith.  Do you think that was a coincidence?

 

Why do you assert he could have traded down with Baltimore, much less gotten what you suggested in that 2013 draft?

 

Finally, it's possible Bortles would have fallen past three if we had a lower pick in that 2014 draft.  But how far does he drop?

 

One more win would have had us at 5-11, could have us picking as low as 8th, just above Minnesota who finished 5-10-1 in 2013, and this is ignoring other teams that might have moved up in the draft order had they lost to us.  But let's stick with the 8th spot.

 

The 2014 draft order actually looked like this pre trades:

 

1.  Houston

2.  St. Louis

3. Jacksonvlle

4.  Cleveland

5.  Oakland

6.  Atlanta

7.  Tampa

8.  Buffalo

9.  Minnesota

10.  Detroit

 

Of that list, Cleveland, Oakland, Tampa, Buffalo and Minnesota needed QBs. Cleveland has claimed they wouldn't have taken Bortles if he lasted until four, but we don't know for sure, considering they took Manziel later that round.  Oakland wound up taking Carr in the 2nd round.  Might they have taken Bortles at 5?  Tampa was a year removed from Winston.  No guarantee Bortles gets past them or Buffalo, though in fairness, it isn't likely Buffalo takes a QB then with them just recently taking Manuel.  Also consider, that while teams may not have traded into the top 5 to get Bortles, consider teams like Tennessee and the Rams might have traded up into the top 10 if Bortles fell far enough.  Bottom line is that that assuming the guys Jacksonville got rid of cost the team at most one win, that may have been enough to cause them to miss out on Bortles, or possibly even have caused the Jaguars to spend picks to trade up themselves to get him.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

you guys know where I stand, and it will be proven that I was right all the time



FIRE CALDWELL

Your an idiot. In three 3 years he gone more for this team than Gene. We got a legit #1 wr in allen robinson, a legit #2 wr in allen hurns, a franchise QB, a very good Guard in Brandon Linder, one of the leagues leading tacklers in Telvin Smith, a return threat in Rashad greene, a great young RB in TJ Yeldon... thas more talent we've had in a LONGER time. His players still need time to grow and he still has moves to make. You can't take the worst team in the NFL and turn them around. Caldwell is doing a GREAT job, firing him would be the stupidest thing ever

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Lowery finished 2 of his 3 seasons on the Jags on injured reserve, I liked him though and could have made a case for him sticking around . Landry is not a good player, no better than Evans or Cyprien and much older.


Caldwell said after the 2014 season he let too many vets walk in his first year - I agree and believe admitting to and not repeating your mistakes is a valuable quality to have.

Hm I missed him saying that but it's reassuring that he's acknowledged we went a little happy with the hatchet year one. Like I said whats done is done and he's had his successful moves which is why I'm on board with going another year into the rebuild ( not that it matters just my opinion as a fan).


Caldwells done really good with the skilled positions he just has to find the right uglies to win the line of scrimmage.


If we can find the uglies this roster can compete we just don't have the muscle to consistently win right now.

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Caldwell didn't try to trade Monroe, he just accepted a sub-par deal from the first team that called.

I've seen this thrown around a lot. Is there any proof to this, or is it just a blind assumption?

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Done a great job on the offensive side of the ball, but not a good job on the defensive side of the ball. Of course, most of the draft picks have been spent on the offensive side of the ball. He needs to draft all defense/OL in this next draft, and the same with free agency.

 

Couldn't agree more with this analogy......and the draft plan.

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What color is the sky on your planet?

My guess is brown, like most of his posts.

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I've seen this thrown around a lot. Is there any proof to this, or is it just a blind assumption?

 

That was a quote from Caldwell at the time. I doubt I could find a link to it though.

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"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

Why do you assert he could have traded down with Baltimore, much less gotten what you suggested in that 2013 draft?

 

 

My only assertion is that he should have been able to make the same trade with Miami that Oakland made. What I see as Caldwell's biggest (maybe only) failing is his total passivity in any attempts to trade down. In both 2013 and 2015 the Jags would have been better off trading down. Maybe even in 2014 if Bortles would have fallen to 9th, and, if not, apparently Carr would have been a fine consolation prize. (OK, Caldwell's choice of head coach sucked too so ineptness in trading down isn't his only failing, but he's really good at picking players and reasonably good at free agency).


 

As far as Baltimore is concerned, I only used the Ravens because they were the team that traded for Monroe, and presumably therefore needed a LT. It didn't have to be Baltimore, I just used them as an example. Caldwell had the #2 pick in the draft as trade bait. Most GMs would be willing to trade a future 1st round pick plus some other picks for a high 1st round pick in the current draft. With the new CBA the salaries of top ten picks is no longer a concern like it used to be.

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"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

And you have zero proof that he didn't, yet you stated it as a fact.

I know he didn't because he didn't.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Done a great job on the offensive side of the ball, but not a good job on the defensive side of the ball. Of course, most of the draft picks have been spent on the offensive side of the ball. He needs to draft all defense/OL in this next draft, and the same with free agency.

 

I mean you only get 7 picks and usually the best is going to be in the first three rounds, so you can debate as to whether or not he truly needed to gut the entire roster... but if you agree he did it surely would take longer than simply 3 drafts.. especially if your view is that quality Free Agents don't want to come here to have their careers die.

 

I agree that the (in this order) CB, Free Safety, LEO/RE, DT (especially due to Marks injurys), OLine need to be addressed still in the draft but he probably isnt going to be able to address it all... yet it is fair to critize him for not getting FA or trades to pick up those gaps...


I think his biggest flaw has been so far in picking a Head Coach as Gus appears to not have what it takes with his low winning percentage but others would argue that Gus had a huge influnce on the draft picks and their development & that for the first two years his friendship interferered with making the right choice at OC & that the team needs another year to prove that they can win...

 

the problem is do you want to gamble & wait on another 4 win season?

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I am shocked that most fans didnt give Caldwell an A in drafting considering the talent on the team accquired with it (minus 2013).

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