One of the military people might be able to answer this but can't you drown from being water boarded?

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One of the military people might be able to answer this but can't you drown from being water boarded?

It's only supposed to create the sensation of drowning- or so they say...

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I find it interesting that some people don't trust our government with a lot of things, but are okay with them torturing people.  Or "enhanced interrogation techniquing" them.  Potato, Potato.

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I was wrong about Trent Baalke. 

I find it interesting that some people don't trust our government with a lot of things, but are okay with them torturing people.  Or "enhanced interrogation techniquing" them.  Potato, Potato.

 

Personally I'd be more alright with it if they made it public.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

One of the military people might be able to answer this but can't you drown from being water boarded?

 

No, it just gives the sensation of drowning.

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

No, it just gives the sensation of drowning.

I was under the impression that water does enter the lungs during water boarding? The purpose of flipping them upside down is to force water in and air out of the lungs?

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I find it interesting that some people don't trust our government with a lot of things, but are okay with them torturing people.  Or "enhanced interrogation techniquing" them.  Potato, Potato.

First off, the government isn't torturing anyone.  In most instances, it's the military or intelligence communities involved in interrogating enemy combatants.  It's the government that always injects itself and winds up screwing things up.  If they left the military to fight wars to win, and not try to run some politically correct, antiseptic military incursion that has zero collateral damage, letting them use whatever tactics are necessary in order to achieve victory, we wouldn't see these protracted situations.  War is ugly.  There was a time when we recognized this as a nation, and when we understood this reality, we defeated tyranny in Europe (twice) and Japan.  When the politicians started to inject themselves into military actions, we wound up with boondoggles like Vietnam.

 

That's not to say there should be limitations, and I'm not advocating the kind of torture techniques that our enemies use regularly to break their opponents.  But, what the politically correct crowd defines as torture is laughable in comparison with what our enemy does, and it's not even remotely close. 

 

If there are documented ways to extract critical information from a prisoner, and it requires extraordinary measures comparable to what we've heard used by our people, so be it.  War is war, and it's not part of war to offer prisoners spa treatments and cable tv.  If a tactic has proven to be ineffective in getting actionable information, then you toss it aside and try something else.  People say it doesn't work.  Osama bin Laden was caught/killed based on information that was extracted from water boarding.  That wasn't the only actionable intelligence that we got from that resource.  The fact that results aren't reported in the media doesn't mean it's not happening.  

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

I was under the impression that water does enter the lungs during water boarding? The purpose of flipping them upside down is to force water in and air out of the lungs?

They tilt the person backward so the water does not end up in the lungs.  It pools in the nasal cavity which creates the impression in the mind of drowning.

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

They tilt the person backward so the water does not end up in the lungs.  It pools in the nasal cavity which creates the impression in the mind of drowning.

 

Interesting thanks for the clarification. If it only simulates drowning and there is no physical possibility of drowning I wouldn't consider it torture either.  

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Interesting thanks for the clarification. If it only simulates drowning and there is no physical possibility of drowning I wouldn't consider it torture either.  

So you'd let someone do it to you?  Let's say... 20 seconds.

 

And let's say it'd save at least one life by doing it.

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I was wrong about Trent Baalke. 

So you'd let someone do it to you?  Let's say... 20 seconds.

 

And let's say it'd save at least one life by doing it.

 

So answer your own question in a different way.  If doing the procedure saved one U.S. soldier's life, or any U.S. life, would it be worth it?

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

So answer your own question in a different way.  If doing the procedure saved one U.S. soldier's life, or any U.S. life, would it be worth it?

Would you let someone waterboard you for say 20 seconds if you knew it'd save a U.S. Soldier's life or any US life?  I'm not sure you could last twenty seconds.  I very much doubt any of us would.


For that matter: Since it's not torture, would you allow US citizens to be forced to undergo waterboarding when suspected of a crime?  


No, it would not be worth it.  Because there are certainly other ways of gaining information.  If the government wants us to support this, they're going to have to prove CONCLUSIVELY that it not only saves lives, but is the only way  to save lives.  I do not, and would never condone torture of another human being. 

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I was wrong about Trent Baalke. 

So you'd let someone do it to you?  Let's say... 20 seconds.

 

And let's say it'd save at least one life by doing it.

 

So the line is if we would let someone do it to ourselves? I wouldn't let someone lock me up in a dark room for hours on end, that doesn't mean it's torture. Torture is purposeful cause of physical harm to acquire information under distress. I'm against that, if they simulate pain or simulate fear that's not torture.

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So the line is if we would let someone do it to ourselves? I wouldn't let someone lock me up in a dark room for hours on end, that doesn't mean it's torture. Torture is purposeful cause of physical harm to acquire information under distress. I'm against that, if they simulate pain or simulate fear that's not torture.

 

You wouldn't let someone lock you up in a dark room for hours on end to save at least one life?  Really?  


And I'll ask you as well:  Since it's not torture, why not let the police do it to American citizens suspected of crimes?  Would you be okay with that?

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I was wrong about Trent Baalke. 

Would you let someone waterboard you for say 20 seconds if you knew it'd save a U.S. Soldier's life or any US life?  I'm not sure you could last twenty seconds.  I very much doubt any of us would.


For that matter: Since it's not torture, would you allow US citizens to be forced to undergo waterboarding when suspected of a crime?  


No, it would not be worth it.  Because there are certainly other ways of gaining information.  If the government wants us to support this, they're going to have to prove CONCLUSIVELY that it not only saves lives, but is the only way  to save lives.  I do not, and would never condone torture of another human being. 

 

Are you really comparing military operations with police operations? 

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Are you really comparing military operations with police operations? 

It's not too big a leap. Police forces across the country continue to become more and more paramilitary in their operations.

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You wouldn't let someone lock you up in a dark room for hours on end to save at least one life?  Really?  


And I'll ask you as well:  Since it's not torture, why not let the police do it to American citizens suspected of crimes?  Would you be okay with that?

 

No police interrogations there is the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. Once they are found guilty they are still afforded constitutional rights, the way citizens (good or bad) are treated is vastly different then enemy combatants. That's just basic understanding of how the world works?

 

Your scenario of what I'd allow someone to do to me to save some made up life is irrelevant, the discussion is what is torture, and what is tolerable. I draw the line at purposefully causing pain to gain information under distress. Making it uncomfortable or simulating fear is not torture. 

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It's not too big a leap. Police forces across the country continue to become more and more paramilitary in their operations.

 

Which is why I'm one of the biggest anti-police militarization voices on this board. The police and military have very different purposes, responsibilities, and roles to play. They should never cross train, equip or practice similar methods. 

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No police interrogations there is the presumption of innocence until proven guilty.

You've never been interrogated, even informally while a cop writes you a warning for going 3 mph over the speed limit, have you?

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You've never been interrogated, even informally while a cop writes you a warning for going 3 mph over the speed limit, have you?

 

Sure I have, I've had several good and bad interactions with the police. I'm not telling you those protections are always distributed I'm telling you they're supposed to be and the way we treat citizens is different the enemy combatants. 

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