The concept of scouting a player by school is so absurd its amazing how many people still subscribe to it. Perhaps at one time, it applied when you have guys like Bowden and Paterno who was at the same university for decades on. Ok, in that case, I get it. That may happen again with Saban in Bama, fine.

 

But what's the point of labeling someone a "Miami CB" when that team has had so many different coaches, and thus differing schemes? Penn St was "Linebacker U". If there's a good LB from Penn St this draft, do you still consider him a "LB U" despite the university moving on from Paterno to O'Brien to Franklin?

 

"Florida Wide Receiver" was a thing back in the Spurrier days. But tell me, what does a wide receiver who played for Spurrier's Fun N Gun have anything in common with Meyer's spread offense? And Muschamps?

 

Absolutely nothing.

 

Scout the player, not the school. Just do your due diligence.

 

Then to what do you attribute schools who produce stud players at the same positions irrespective of coaching changes?

 

USC under McKay and Robinson produced stud safeties like Browner and Lott,  Even under the low point of Hackett, IIRC, USC produced guys like Tim McDonald.  Then they produced Polamalu.

 

Under several coaches spanning generations, Miami produced Chuck Foreman, Ottis Anderson, Edgerrin James, Clinton Portis and Frank Gore.  DT?  Rubin Carter(pre Schnellenberger)  to Jerome Brown (Jimmy Johnson) to Warren Sapp (Erickson) to Wilfork (Coker).

 

Alabama has produced stud LBs from Bear Bryant (EJ Junior), Ray Perkins (Cornelius Bennett) Bill Curry (Derrick Thomas), Gene Stallings (Dwayne Rudd), Mike Shula (Demeco Ryans) to Nick Saban (Donta Hightower).

 

Answer the question I posed above.

 

Why the derision over the guy from the Colorado School of mines?

 

If you find football players where you find football players, nobody should have had any problem with that signing.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

<a class="" href='https://twitter.com/TonyPauline'>Tony Pauline ‏@TonyPauline </a> <a class="" href='https://twitter.com/TonyPauline/status/588358181564321792' title="11:08 AM - 15 Apr 2015">57m57 minutes ago</a>
<p class="" style="color:rgb(41,47,51);font-family:Arial, sans-serif;">Jacksonville Jaguars, Indianapolis Colts and Arizona Cardinals have running back coaches on hand for Tevin Coleman's workout today.

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Tweet from Clarence Hill (@clarencehilljr) - Yes the Cowboys were present at Tevin Coleman's pro day where he blazed a sub 4.4 forty. They were impressed


https://twitter.com/clarencehilljr/statu...0728012800


Maybe they consider him in the first round now?

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"Before you criticize a man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he's a mile away and barefoot."

Then to what do you attribute schools who produce stud players at the same positions irrespective of coaching changes?

 

USC under McKay and Robinson produced stud safeties like Browner and Lott,  Even under the low point of Hackett, IIRC, USC produced guys like Tim McDonald.  Then they produced Polamalu.

 

Under several coaches spanning generations, Miami produced Chuck Foreman, Ottis Anderson, Edgerrin James, Clinton Portis and Frank Gore.  DT?  Rubin Carter(pre Schnellenberger)  to Jerome Brown (Jimmy Johnson) to Warren Sapp (Erickson) to Wilfork (Coker).

 

Alabama has produced stud LBs from Bear Bryant (EJ Junior), Ray Perkins (Cornelius Bennett) Bill Curry (Derrick Thomas), Gene Stallings (Dwayne Rudd), Mike Shula (Demeco Ryans) to Nick Saban (Donta Hightower).

 

Answer the question I posed above.

 

Why the derision over the guy from the Colorado School of mines?

 

If you find football players where you find football players, nobody should have had any problem with that signing.

 

Why the derision over the guy from Colorado School of mines? Because people are still hung up on this whole "School" thing. I think for certain positions, there's a bit of correlation because of the player base they recruit from. Guys from the old Big 10(?) Iowa/Wisconsin/Nebraska etc. had big OL/DLss because some attribute it to the kids from that region growing up with the diet that they have. Some attribute the athletes from Florida, California, Texas due to being able to play outdoors for the most part constantly due to the mild winters (compared to northern teams).

 

There's no science in drafting players. If there was, then the hit rate would be much higher, because teams would be using that science to evaluate. But it doesn't exist.

 

Now is the probability of success higher drafting from a big time school compared to a div 2 school? I think that I'd agree on. But to be exact on position? I don't agree, because there simply are too many factors.

 

Sure, you can pick out the successes. But how do they compare to the failures?

 

Since James, Portis, and Gore...who has Miami produced at RB?

 

Mike James? Lamar Miller? Eh they are OK, with Miller looking like a mighty bust up until a small stretch last season.

 

Gore was drafted in 2005. That's nine years of no "stud" running backs from a so-called "RB Univ".

 

Basing it on recent trends (like the Alabama/Saban example)? OK, I can buy that. But to base decisions on decades and decades of history when not only coaches, schemes, but the game of college football and the NFL as a whole has change, to me, is a logical fallacy in evaluating a prospect.

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Why the derision over the guy from the Colorado School of mines?

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Level of competition mostly, and Gene Smiths lack of finding good players even from the big conferences.

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Why the derision over the guy from Colorado School of mines? Because people are still hung up on this whole "School" thing. I think for certain positions, there's a bit of correlation because of the player base they recruit from. Guys from the old Big 10(?) Iowa/Wisconsin/Nebraska etc. had big OL/DLss because some attribute it to the kids from that region growing up with the diet that they have. Some attribute the athletes from Florida, California, Texas due to being able to play outdoors for the most part constantly due to the mild winters (compared to northern teams).

 

There's no science in drafting players. If there was, then the hit rate would be much higher, because teams would be using that science to evaluate. But it doesn't exist.

 

Now is the probability of success higher drafting from a big time school compared to a div 2 school? I think that I'd agree on. But to be exact on position? I don't agree, because there simply are too many factors.

 

Sure, you can pick out the successes. But how do they compare to the failures?

 

Since James, Portis, and Gore...who has Miami produced at RB?

 

Mike James? Lamar Miller? Eh they are OK, with Miller looking like a mighty bust up until a small stretch last season.

 

Gore was drafted in 2005. That's nine years of no "stud" running backs from a so-called "RB Univ".

 

Basing it on recent trends (like the Alabama/Saban example)? OK, I can buy that. But to base decisions on decades and decades of history when not only coaches, schemes, but the game of college football and the NFL as a whole has change, to me, is a logical fallacy in evaluating a prospect.

Putting aside the opening statement regarding "school" in the name for a moment...do you take seriously the assertion that regional diet plays a factor in schools producing or not producing quality OL?  Is Indiana not in the same region of the country as Iowa and Wisconsin?

 

Regarding the closing point about the Miami RBs/recent trends, there is merit to that argument.

 

I do not assert my method is an absolute rule.  Just a "rule of thumb," or a guide, if you will.

 

For instance, a player from a football powerhouse that has produced successful players at his position is not guaranteed any success just because he went to the school.  But you know on some level, the school has demonstrated an ability to identify, recruit, and develop players at that position capable of success at the NFL level.  Conversely, Indiana has not demonstrated much ability to identify, recruit, and develop players at most positions-notably RB-capable of success at the NFL level. 

 

What I don't get about your aversion to the theory is that on some level, you subscribe to it conceptually.

 

You said you could see the difference in "the probability of success higher drafting from a big time school compared to a div 2 school."  So you acknowledge there is a difference between a division 1 and a division 2 school in terms of the quality of players that are NFL caliber prospects.  Yet if there are two division 1 schools, you act as if there can be no difference in the quality of the program even though they are on the same division.  Do you assert that, as a long time football watcher as I assume you have been, there is no difference between the Alabamas and USCs and the Armys, Dukes?  All four schools are div 1 schools, but anyone who has watched football for any appreciable length of time can tell you there is a HUGE difference in the qualities of the programs.  If you don't, I enthusiastically welcome any compelling argument that factually and logically puts those programs on the same quality footing.

 

If, on the other hand, you acknowledge the open and obvious truth that even between division 1 schools, there can be a huge disparity in quality between one football program and another, then it stands to reason teams allocate time and resources accordingly.

 

We are in the pre draft phase where colleges and universities are having Pro Day workouts.  How many teams were represented at Alabama's or FSU's or Oregon's Pro Day? How many scouts and GMs and coaches were there? How many at Wyoming's?

 

Why the difference?

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Then to what do you attribute schools who produce stud players at the same positions irrespective of coaching changes?


USC under McKay and Robinson produced stud safeties like Browner and Lott, Even under the low point of Hackett, IIRC, USC produced guys like Tim McDonald. Then they produced Polamalu.


Under several coaches spanning generations, Miami produced Chuck Foreman, Ottis Anderson, Edgerrin James, Clinton Portis and Frank Gore. DT? Rubin Carter(pre Schnellenberger) to Jerome Brown (Jimmy Johnson) to Warren Sapp (Erickson) to Wilfork (Coker).


Alabama has produced stud LBs from Bear Bryant (EJ Junior), Ray Perkins (Cornelius Bennett) Bill Curry (Derrick Thomas), Gene Stallings (Dwayne Rudd), Mike Shula (Demeco Ryans) to Nick Saban (Donta Hightower).


Answer the question I posed above.


Why the derision over the guy from the Colorado School of mines?


If you find football players where you find football players, nobody should have had any problem with that signing.

The team that drafted Rolondo McClain in the top 10 must have thought like you.

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The team that drafted Rolondo McClain in the top 10 must have thought like you.

Yes.  They took a calculated risk and lost because in part, they could not account for character.

 

But let me ask you this.

 

What would be the safer first round bet, the guy from Alabama or the guy from JU?

 

On a base level, imagine the Jaguars announced their first round pick as ___________ from USC.  Okay...in an alternate reality, imagine the same draft, the Jaguars announced their first round pick as ___________from JU.

 

What would you be more comfortable hearing?

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Of course there is a "rule of thumb" that the best players will come from the best schools from the biggest football conferences.  It makes sense.  

 

For me though, you also seriously consider the other schools as long as they compete against the best competition as well.  For instance, I wouldn't oppose us drafting Bud Dupree, he played for Kentucky.

 

There hasn't been an impact DE from Kentucky since Art Still nearly 40 years ago.

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Yes.  They took a calculated risk and lost because in part, they could not account for character.

 

But let me ask you this.

 

What would be the safer first round bet, the guy from Alabama or the guy from JU?

 

On a base level, imagine the Jaguars announced their first round pick as ___________ from USC.  Okay...in an alternate reality, imagine the same draft, the Jaguars announced their first round pick as ___________from JU.

 

What would you be more comfortable hearing?

 

Alabama of course.

 

Level of competition they play, prior success stories, and all those are important.  

 

These discussions are about mid to late round picks usually.  The colorado school of mines guy was undrafted.  You make it seem like we're saying "wow coleman had 2000 yards, let's draft him ahead of Todd Gurley."

 

We're saying he can be a possible draft pick in round 3 or so.

 

would you rather have Matt Jones from Florida or Tevin Coleman?

Buck Allen from USC or Tevin Coleman?

Cameron Artis-Payne from Auburn or Coleman?

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ESPN's draft profile on Coleman compares him to Demarco Murray. That would lead me to believe he would be a fit here as well.


http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas-cowboys/p...in-coleman

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"Before you criticize a man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he's a mile away and barefoot."

Smart teams draft players due to traits they have and then develop them.

 

That's how a team like the Steelers got Antonio Brown, from Central Michigan.  He's one of the best WRs in the league (some say he's the best).

 

Bullseye would've never drafted him.

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ESPN's draft profile on Coleman compares him to Demarco Murray. That would lead me to believe he would be a fit here as well.

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas-cowboys/p...in-coleman

 

with that 40 time he just ran, he probably put himself into position to need to be picked at 36 or before. 

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Coughlin when asked if winning will be a focus: "What the hell else is there? This is nice and dandy, but winning is what all this is about."

Smart teams draft players due to traits they have and then develop them.

 

That's how a team like the Steelers got Antonio Brown, from Central Michigan.  He's one of the best WRs in the league (some say he's the best).

 

Bullseye would've never drafted him.

 

no one says that. 

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Coughlin when asked if winning will be a focus: "What the hell else is there? This is nice and dandy, but winning is what all this is about."

no one says that. 

 

I've heard plenty of people say it, watching Steeler games last year.

 

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/201...rs-offense

 

That's not the point though - he is definitely a great WR and a great PR.

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I've heard plenty of people say it, watching Steeler games last year.

 

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/201...rs-offense

 

That's not the point though - he is definitely a great WR and a great PR.

 

at no point in that article did he even say that he might be the best in the league. 

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Coughlin when asked if winning will be a focus: "What the hell else is there? This is nice and dandy, but winning is what all this is about."

at no point in that article did he even say that he might be the best in the league. 

 

what exactly are you debating here?

 

I've heard it a few times watching the NFL.  Gruden said "Show me someone playing better than Antonio Brown"...

 

You can't dispute that he's a great WR and one of the best.  In fact, I don't think anyone can claim to be the best at the moment, there's just a few guys at the very top that are in discussion.  He is one of those guys.

 

The entire point isn't what someone said about him - it's that he's a great WR from Central Michigan, a place that never produced a WR even close to him.

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Smart teams draft players due to traits they have and then develop them.

 

That's how a team like the Steelers got Antonio Brown, from Central Michigan.  He's one of the best WRs in the league (some say he's the best).

 

Bullseye would've never drafted him.

Not true.

 

If a player from a smaller school exhibited traits that made him extraordinary at his level and gave indicia he could play at the NFL level, I'd certainly consider drafting him.

 

But in the absence of anything showing him to be truly transcendant, I would not take him over a comparably rated person from a better program.

 

Janoris Jenkins came out of N. Alabama.  He had the skills necessary to compete in the SEC for two years before getting kicked off UF for pot use.

 

Physically speaking, he exhibited the traits to be an exceptional CB.  I did not want him because of the pot use...not because he went to N. Alabama.

 

I saw Rashean Mathis At B-CC.  He was recruited by FSU and had his scholarship withdrawn due to injury.  At B-CC he showed to be a superior athlete...showed good ball skills and range and had good hands.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Not true.

 

If a player from a smaller school exhibited traits that made him extraordinary at his level and gave indicia he could play at the NFL level, I'd certainly consider drafting him.

 

But in the absence of anything showing him to be truly transcendant, I would not take him over a comparably rated person from a better program.

 

Janoris Jenkins came out of N. Alabama.  He had the skills necessary to compete in the SEC for two years before getting kicked off UF for pot use.

 

Physically speaking, he exhibited the traits to be an exceptional CB.  I did not want him because of the pot use...not because he went to N. Alabama.

 

I saw Rashean Mathis At B-CC.  He was recruited by FSU and had his scholarship withdrawn due to injury.  At B-CC he showed to be a superior athlete...showed good ball skills and range and had good hands.

 

OK, so what exactly is your point?

Nobody is drafting Tevin Coleman ahead of Matt Jones from Florida if Jones showed the skills that Coleman has.

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at no point in that article did he even say that he might be the best in the league. 

At a position where stats DO matter, he was statistically the best WR in the league.

 

While I don't agree that he's the best in the league, he's certainly among the best at his position.

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