Yikes, that's certainly no ringing endorsement of this QB class.

Sure, you could read it that way. Of course, if he honestly thought there was a guy who was awesome, I don't see how it would benefit them to say that either. This time of year, it's really tough to believe anything, since it just isn't in their interest to tip their hands.

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I think you may be misinterpreting my posts. I'm not disillusioned about how the NFL works.    First - he has only parceled out bits of information on his intentions and draft philosophy and he  hasn't "tipped his hand."   I'm not asserting he's going to tell us all who he'd ideally want in the first three rounds.  I'm saying that the comments he's made at the fan forum and to the media in recent weeks are likely genuine.  And I don't think they are so revealing to "tip his hand."   

 

He's already had dinner with the two GM's above him while at the Senior Bowl.  Is that not the definition of "chummy?" 

 

He said he's comfortable at #3 if his guy falls to them and confident he can trade up if he feels he needs to as draft day approaches.  I think he's being truthful.  

Is that uninformed? 

Think it through.  The only reason his guy wouldn't be there at # 3 is because one of his "chums" had already taken him at 1 or 2.  Yet he believes he can simply trade up without giving away the farm?  Trust me; dinner isn't going to change the price. Don't lose sight of the fact that these other GM's are his competitors!

 

PS  Since you asked, No, that's not the definition of "chummy" and it's not uninformed, it's just naive.

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When you get into the endzone, act like you've been there before.

Think it through.  The only reason his guy wouldn't be there at # 3 is because one of his "chums" had already taken him at 1 or 2.  Yet he believes he can simply trade up without giving away the farm?  Trust me; dinner isn't going to change the price. Don't lose sight of the fact that these other GM's are his competitors!

 

PS  Since you asked, No, that's not the definition of "chummy" and it's not uninformed, it's just naive.

NYC had a mistype as Caldwell had dinner with Snead and Dimitroff. That's the Rams and Falcons GM. Caldwell said the #1 pick is probably off the table, which is common sense anyways. Caldwell said the price to move up from #3 to #2 would probably be a 3rd or 4th round pick, "depending on demand". Which he is speaking the absolute truth in my opinion. It cost us a 4th to move up and grab Blackmon? If there isn't another team or two who really wants to move up above us (that is if we even want to trade up 1 spot), there's no reason why a 3rd or 4th round pick wouldn't swap ours and the Rams pick.

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Think it through.  The only reason his guy wouldn't be there at # 3 is because one of his "chums" had already taken him at 1 or 2.  Yet he believes he can simply trade up without giving away the farm?  Trust me; dinner isn't going to change the price. Don't lose sight of the fact that these other GM's are his competitors!

 

PS  Since you asked, No, that's not the definition of "chummy" and it's not uninformed, it's just naive.

 

I appreciate your stance.  I just see it a little more simply than you do.  Call it naive if you like.   I've been called much worse. Perhaps I am to a degree.  I've never asked an NFL GM how many times he's been deceived by a colleague.  So I don't know how common or uncommon it is. I'm just giving my gut opinion on this particular set of comments from DC.  

 I just think he's confident picking at 3 and confident he can maneuver if he needs to.   That's all he's really saying, IMO.   The fact that he's had dinner with Snead and then makes those statements days later most likely means they feel they aren't eyeing the same prospect. Even if they didn't come right out and say it to one another.    I don't see that as some unfathomable sharing of information between two guys that communicate well. 

 

It wouldn't shock me if the Rams trade their pick for better value to another team that swoops in and takes Caldwell's favorite guy.   Of course that could happen.  I'm not that naive. (Which - by the way -  is why I don't need to "think it through" - I've already thought a step further in that scenario you suggested I think on)    But  - I think it's possible that Snead and Caldwell have a mutual understanding of what each of them  likely want to happen at #2 and #3.   Could Snead be telling Caldwell what he wants to hear to deceive him?  Again - possible.  I just don't think that stuff happens as often as people think.  

It's also still really early - and a few guys that we think are top 5 picks right now may be shuffled down as other players supplant them after the combine.  

 

It seems to me that every year there is an incredible amount of talk of smokescreens and the like -  and the vast majority of it turns out to be only talk. 

 

Not meant to be argumentative or antagonistic, BTW.  Just trying to be clear on my view.  You could certainly be right as I am not thoroughly versed in the complete history of NFL draft deceptions - leaving the door open for some naivety. 

 

NYC had a mistype as Caldwell had dinner with Snead and Dimitroff. That's the Rams and Falcons GM. Caldwell said the #1 pick is probably off the table, which is common sense anyways. Caldwell said the price to move up from #3 to #2 would probably be a 3rd or 4th round pick, "depending on demand". Which he is speaking the absolute truth in my opinion. It cost us a 4th to move up and grab Blackmon? If there isn't another team or two who really wants to move up above us (that is if we even want to trade up 1 spot), there's no reason why a 3rd or 4th round pick wouldn't swap ours and the Rams pick.

Thanks for clearing that up. I definitely bungled a few details there on the dinner thing. :thumbsup:  

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I think you might be overthinking it a little bit - but I totally understand your (valid) points.  

 

I value the reasons Caldwell may be deceptive or hushed on certain information  -  but I just hold the opinion that he's being genuine in his most recent discussions of the draft.  Should be interesting to look back on in a few months.  I guess I'm just going with my gut instinct on the matter and that's been wrong before, so....

Perhaps I am.

 

Maybe I am being overly cynical.

 

The referenced comments WERE interesting to hear and I agree with the sentiment that overall, the team has been transparent.

 

I just think being transparent about the disinterest in signing Tebow, for instance, is different from disclosing draft strategy prior to the draft.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

He's already had dinner with the two GM's above him while at the Senior Bowl.  Is that not the definition of "chummy?" 

 

 Since movie scenes have been introduced in this thread, didn't Vader have a meal with Han Solo in Empire Strikes Back? Did that make them "chummy?"

 

Not sayin'....just sayin'....

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

 Since movie scenes have been introduced in this thread, didn't Vader have a meal with Han Solo in Empire Strikes Back? Did that make them "chummy?"

 

Not sayin'....just sayin'....

 

Future father-in-laws are always hard on the boyfriend.

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Some things I took away from the transcript of the Fan Forum:

 

1. Caldwell is trying to maintain a "big picture" frame of mind when it comes to player acquisition - The reason I believe that is from the quote "I think it'd be more difficult to take the wrong QB at 3. You can see how that can set back an organization. It's really important to us to make a great organizational decision there. I believe our vision and philosophy was to continue to build this roster and make a really good team. In the mean time, if a QB presents itself to us that we're all on board with, we will pull the trigger.
   " Emphasis was added by me. Caldwell is very aware of the impact of taking the wrong player when other options exist at different positions. He went on in that quote to cite the building process that Denver and San Francisco went through, and how a good/great Quarterback was added to an already stacked roster. I hope he is successful with his drafting.
   
2. He is aware of needing starters from Rounds One through Three - A-duh, but that's glib. The weak situation of the roster forces new players to become starters. This puts a lot of pressure on the General Manager's team since they need to have quality production come out of their Day One and Two picks. Again, I hope he is successful with his drafting.
   
3. He has an interesting view of how teams look to improve themselves - And it isn't one that I disagree with, I just never thought of it his way. In his quote "The value only comes if there's a demand for a pick and there may not be demand for a pick. For example, it may be a good OT year and teams may say well, there's no need to trade up because I'll take the 3rd best OT and upgrade. Or it might be a really good DE or WR year and a team says 'Well.. Maybe if I can't (hypothetically) get Sammy Watkins I can take another player in the 2nd rd and still get better.' Or, conversely it might be a really bad QB year and a team will say I have to trade up to get my guy
   ." I feel like Caldwell thinks that Teams look to improve, but at a cost. They understand that some players are better than others, but that the less talented guy may still be able to help, simply at a lower cost.
   
4. Austin Pasztor's nickname is "Frenchie" - I have no comment here, I just wanted to point that out.
   

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I'm trying to make myself more informed and less opinionated.

Stop saying whatever stupid thing you're talking about and pay attention to all the interesting things I have to say!

Future father-in-laws are always hard on the boyfriend.

 

Boba...you WOULD side with Vader here, wouldn't you? 

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

 

If eel like Caldwell thinks that Teams look to improve, but at a cost. They understand that some players are better than others, but that the less talented guy may still be able to help, simply at a lower cost.

 

Look, Deac, I know you may not agree with everything our GM does, but is namecalling really necessary?

 

Sorry...just could not resist.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Look, Deac, I know you may not agree with everything our GM does, but is namecalling really necessary?

 

Sorry...just could not resist.

 

Hey, if a guy acts like a slimy, slithery, water snake, then it's my duty and right as a fan to call him out on it!

 

Man, he better not be doing anything cocky. I can't stand it when I think of people in sports being cocky. Gets me all riled up.

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I'm trying to make myself more informed and less opinionated.

Stop saying whatever stupid thing you're talking about and pay attention to all the interesting things I have to say!

He has an interesting view of how teams look to improve themselves - And it isn't one that I disagree with, I just never thought of it his way. In his quote "The value only comes if there's a demand for a pick and there may not be demand for a pick. For example, it may be a good OT year and teams may say well, there's no need to trade up because I'll take the 3rd best OT and upgrade. Or it might be a really good DE or WR year and a team says 'Well.. Maybe if I can't (hypothetically) get Sammy Watkins I can take another player in the 2nd rd and still get better.' Or, conversely it might be a really bad QB year and a team will say I have to trade up to get my guy
." I feel like Caldwell thinks that Teams look to improve, but at a cost. They understand that some players are better than others, but that the less talented guy may still be able to help, simply at a lower cost.

 

 

I think what he was saying is, if, for example, there is one great WR in the draft and no other good ones, that will generate greater demand for that draft spot than if there is one great WR and a lot of good ones.  The team that needs a WR will not need that pick as much if they can still get a good one later.   Teams will covet a Sammy Watkins more if they have no plan B available with a lesser WR. 

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I think what he was saying is, if, for example, there is one great WR in the draft and no other good ones, that will generate greater demand for that draft spot than if there is one great WR and a lot of good ones.  The team that needs a WR will not need that pick as much if they can still get a good one later.   Teams will covet a Sammy Watkins more if they have no plan B available with a lesser WR. 

 

Oh absolutely! Which means that the value of your team's draft slot is somewhat dependent on the draft class as it pertains to the need of the other teams in the League. But his comment about how "... I can take another player and still get better..." was rather eye-opening for me. Then again, I'm pretty much an idiot so it's not all that hard to come up with something I haven't thought of before.

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I'm trying to make myself more informed and less opinionated.

Stop saying whatever stupid thing you're talking about and pay attention to all the interesting things I have to say!

Atlanta traded two 1sts, a 2nd, a 4th and a 7th for Julio Jones.  People said Atlanta gave away too much.  Dimitroff said, "We accomplished, in our minds, becoming more explosive. We also believe that we need to continue to grow as an offense and we will never look back on our move as being one that was overly expensive. It was something that we deemed was right for the organization at the time. Again, Julio was brought into our organization not for the here and now only, but for the future of the franchise."  It was a bold move that paid huge dividends.  Julio Jones has been a top receiver and someone opposing defenses need to scheme for every week. 
 
Cleveland used those picks on:
 
Phil Taylor at 21 in the first round
Greg Little (after using their first pick of the second round on Jabaal Sheard)
Owen Marecic (after using their first pick of the 4th on Jordan Cameron)
Eric Hagg
 
and in 2012
Brandon Weeden (after taking Trent Richardson)
 
Do you think the Falcons have any regrets whatsoever about this trade?

I think a lot of people do.

They moved from 27th to 6th for Julio Jones. That move is valued at 920 points. They gave up their 27th, 59th, and 124th pick in 2011, along with the 22nd and 118th pick in 2012. These values total 1196 points for a difference of 276 points. That 276 value is equal to the 63rd pick. So, essentially by point value, they sacrificed a late second round pick to get Julio Jones.

That value chart is not gospel, but it does provide some reference point. If it had no stock value then it wouldn't be used.

Regards...............the Chiefjag

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 Since movie scenes have been introduced in this thread, didn't Vader have a meal with Han Solo in Empire Strikes Back? Did that make them "chummy?"

 

Not sayin'....just sayin'....

Do you think we'll find Caldwell encased in carbnonite?

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When you get into the endzone, act like you've been there before.

That value chart is not gospel, but it does provide some reference point. If it had no stock value then it wouldn't be used.


Regards...............the Chiefjag

That chart is probably worth a C grade in a junior high statistics class.  I'm sure all GM's smile when their ten-year-old rates draft deals for them using it.

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When you get into the endzone, act like you've been there before.

Do you think we'll find Caldwell encased in carbnonite?

I sure hope not, because it would likely mean he botched this draft.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

I sure hope not, because it would likely mean he botched this draft.

In this scenario, is it safe to assume Gregg Williams is Jabba the Hutt? Because, well.. y'know.

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Only a chump boos the home team!

I think a lot of people do.


They moved from 27th to 6th for Julio Jones. That move is valued at 920 points. They gave up their 27th, 59th, and 124th pick in 2011, along with the 22nd and 118th pick in 2012. These values total 1196 points for a difference of 276 points. That 276 value is equal to the 63rd pick. So, essentially by point value, they sacrificed a late second round pick to get Julio Jones.


That value chart is not gospel, but it does provide some reference point. If it had no stock value then it wouldn't be used.


Regards...............the Chiefjag

My original statement was I think it depends on the draft class. I still believe that. GMs choose to rely on that chart or throw it out the window based on perceived value of the pick and perceived quality of the player.

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Only a chump boos the home team!

That chart is probably worth a C grade in a junior high statistics class.  I'm sure all GM's smile when their ten-year-old rates draft deals for them using it.

 

 

Hmmmm..................yeah, you're probably correct since WaltersFootball.com says this about it; "The following chart is used by NFL general managers and coaches when making trades on draft day." I mean why would anyone believe WaltersFootball when we have message board posters who are far superior in knowledge of the inner workings of the football draft?

 

Regards...................the Chiefjag

 

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