COMIC SPOILERS DON'T READ IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE SPOILED!!!

 

 

 

 

So Captain America: Steve Rogers #1 came out and apparently Captain America has been a sleeper agent for Hydra all along and goes into a back story around that. So yea, that happened. I don't like it at all. 

 

I don't keep track like I used to, especially as it pertains to Marvel but I seriously hope you're joking (no shade). If true, that has to be one of the single, dumbest creative decisions Marvel has ever made. You have no reason to make that up, so I'm just going to take your word for it because that's NOT something I want to read.

 

That's why I said Marvel. In DC land I mos def liked DKR. I loved MoS even though many didn't. BvS was okay. I need to watch it again to get a better feel for it. 

 

My bad...that's what happens when you skim and not read completely. Apologies.

 

I was hoping the Hulk showed up.

 

I don't remember the Hulk having a lot to do with Civil War and besides, you can't portray Wanda as this earth-shattering threat with the Hulk and Thor rampaging around. Their omission was likely a creative decision to push Wanda as the patsy for why the SRA was a good idea, since without either of them there, she and the Vision were the two most overtly powerful heroes present throughout the movie.

 

Batman vs Superman far superior? I actually enjoyed the movie but when you compare them side by side the difference is laughable.


Civil War had all the balance,story and development of characters within the story,it actually makes sense. BvS just kinda threw everything together and hoped for the best. I do love the Batman vs Superman fight scene though.

 

I personally think you and Kodiak are both right to a point. Far superior is a stretch but Kodiak is correct in that BvS was much better than most people say it is. It gets flamed mostly because they tried to do too much in a relatively short movie (which convoluted everythin), because it wasn't funny/fun/amusing like the Avengers (DC comics ARE NOT generally funny/amusing compared to Marvel's) and people can't reconcile Cavill's Superman compared to Reeve's (unfair comparison...they aren't even the same character; let's compare Silver Age Superman to New 52 Superman...yeah, that doesn't work). He's especially right in that it gets entirely too much shade from the masses despite being a pretty good movie for what it was supposed to try and accomplish.

 

Civil War was better and BvS did not suck.

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<i>Behold man's final mad disgrace.</i>

<i>He chops his nose to spite his face.</i>

 

-Etrigan the Demon

 

I saw the movie a few days back and I was very pleased with it. It was one of the few, if not the, movies that has multiple characters but maintains one storyline throughout. Probably the biggest issue I had with it was that the filmmakers seemed to lean on Robert Downey Jr. to carry the emotional load of explaining "this is why we're doing this thing" so much that it felt one-sided. I can't help but shake the feeling that they knew that if they tried to have Chris Evans do anything other than look sad about how all his friends are dead that they'd be sunk. Not that he doesn't do a convincing job in his role, but it just feels like they knew Downey could carry it off so much better.

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I'm trying to make myself more informed and less opinionated.

Stop saying whatever stupid thing you're talking about and pay attention to all the interesting things I have to say!

I don't keep track like I used to, especially as it pertains to Marvel but I seriously hope you're joking (no shade). If true, that has to be one of the single, dumbest creative decisions Marvel has ever made. You have no reason to make that up, so I'm just going to take your word for it because that's NOT something I want to read.



My bad...that's what happens when you skim and not read completely. Apologies.



I don't remember the Hulk having a lot to do with Civil War and besides, you can't portray Wanda as this earth-shattering threat with the Hulk and Thor rampaging around. Their omission was likely a creative decision to push Wanda as the patsy for why the SRA was a good idea, since without either of them there, she and the Vision were the two most overtly powerful heroes present throughout the movie.



I personally think you and Kodiak are both right to a point. Far superior is a stretch but Kodiak is correct in that BvS was much better than most people say it is. It gets flamed mostly because they tried to do too much in a relatively short movie (which convoluted everythin), because it wasn't funny/fun/amusing like the Avengers (DC comics ARE NOT generally funny/amusing compared to Marvel's) and people can't reconcile Cavill's Superman compared to Reeve's (unfair comparison...they aren't even the same character; let's compare Silver Age Superman to New 52 Superman...yeah, that doesn't work). He's especially right in that it gets entirely too much shade from the masses despite being a pretty good movie for what it was supposed to try and accomplish.


Civil War was better and BvS did not suck.

I enjoyed BvS for what it was. Thought Batman ,Lex and Superman were played very well.


Comparing it with Civil War really highlights its weak points though. Seemed like they just threw scene onto scene without any thought for how it flowed as a movie. Enjoyed the fight scene but the way Superman was saved was fairly shoddy. All the things BvS did badly Civil War nailed.

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I feel you, but Marvel set a very enduring precedent that, while I never completely understood nor agreed with it...I eventually came to accept:

 

I first started reading comics, specifically the X-Men right before Fall of the Mutants. The narrative within the MU has always been that the general populace is afraid of/hates mutants specifically but the myriad of "accidental" heroes are often given a free pass despite these altered humans are often more powerful and as a result destructive. The base Silver Age Fantastic Four is substantially more powerful than your Silver Age/Giant-Sized X-Men, for example. The FF is celebrated as heroes, meanwhile the X-Men go through long stretches where they are reviled and/or have to operate "underground." The Hulk alone is capable of wrecking continents by himself yet unless he's actively out to break stuff (see World War Hulk), he doesn't garner a fraction of the hate your typical, relatively weak mutant would (let's use Dazzler just because). This inherent hypocrisy is part of what gave Civil War (for its many flaws) some actual merit...

 

At least to me.

That is being mimicked inside the MCU as well. Cap is respected as is Tony Stark. Presumably Spidey will be as well with the common theme being they are all punchy types (loosely) where is she is what appears to be magic. It's completely understandable you would be more afraid of that than someone who is just really strong. 

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I don't keep track like I used to, especially as it pertains to Marvel but I seriously hope you're joking (no shade). If true, that has to be one of the single, dumbest creative decisions Marvel has ever made. You have no reason to make that up, so I'm just going to take your word for it because that's NOT something I want to read.

 

 

My bad...that's what happens when you skim and not read completely. Apologies.

 

 

I don't remember the Hulk having a lot to do with Civil War and besides, you can't portray Wanda as this earth-shattering threat with the Hulk and Thor rampaging around. Their omission was likely a creative decision to push Wanda as the patsy for why the SRA was a good idea, since without either of them there, she and the Vision were the two most overtly powerful heroes present throughout the movie.

 

 

I personally think you and Kodiak are both right to a point. Far superior is a stretch but Kodiak is correct in that BvS was much better than most people say it is. It gets flamed mostly because they tried to do too much in a relatively short movie (which convoluted everythin), because it wasn't funny/fun/amusing like the Avengers (DC comics ARE NOT generally funny/amusing compared to Marvel's) and people can't reconcile Cavill's Superman compared to Reeve's (unfair comparison...they aren't even the same character; let's compare Silver Age Superman to New 52 Superman...yeah, that doesn't work). He's especially right in that it gets entirely too much shade from the masses despite being a pretty good movie for what it was supposed to try and accomplish.

 

Civil War was better and BvS did not suck.

The total rage out people are having towards BvS is completely uncalled for. Sure it's not light hearted, sure there some plot holes but it was fun. I'm hopeful that Geoff Johns and Batfleck can help right the ship. I don't really like the tone that Snyder wants the whole universe to be. It doesnt need to be super quippy but it also does not need to be the bleakest darkness ever either. 

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You guys have really rekindled my inner geek and I'm grateful...

 

 

I saw the movie a few days back and I was very pleased with it. It was one of the few, if not the, movies that has multiple characters but maintains one storyline throughout. Probably the biggest issue I had with it was that the filmmakers seemed to lean on Robert Downey Jr. to carry the emotional load of explaining "this is why we're doing this thing" so much that it felt one-sided. I can't help but shake the feeling that they knew that if they tried to have Chris Evans do anything other than look sad about how all his friends are dead that they'd be sunk. Not that he doesn't do a convincing job in his role, but it just feels like they knew Downey could carry it off so much better.

 

This is an excellent point, Deacon and I agree completely. This is where I feel they may have missed the boat as far as the Vision is concerned. Sure, he's an android but he also fills the role (when compared to the Justice League) as the Martian Manhunter who's job it is to be the sounding board for everyone else...or it was...I don't know what J'onn is supposed to be these days and neither do the powers-that-be at DC.

 

That's their own fault though, Paul Bettany and Scarlet Johanssen specifically are good actors. There was more than enough talent to spread that emotion around even if they didn't trust Evans to be able to convey it properly. Edit: I remembered after I sent this they all were on the same side. Oh well, I guess that couldn't be helped.

 

I enjoyed BvS for what it was. Thought Batman ,Lex and Superman were played very well.


Comparing it with Civil War really highlights its weak points though. Seemed like they just threw scene onto scene without any thought for how it flowed as a movie. Enjoyed the fight scene but the way Superman was saved was fairly shoddy. All the things BvS did badly Civil War nailed.

 

I largely agree although I maintain my issues with Eisenberg's Luthor...I can't help but seeing a bad mix of The Riddler and The Joker whenever I see a clip of him. I'll need to re watch the movie soon. Maybe my opinion will change.

 

That is being mimicked inside the MCU as well. Cap is respected as is Tony Stark. Presumably Spidey will be as well with the common theme being they are all punchy types (loosely) where is she is what appears to be magic. It's completely understandable you would be more afraid of that than someone who is just really strong. 

 

The the MCU should flip the <expletive> out when they get a load of Doctor Strange. At his pinnacle (you know, back before he ditched the cloak lost nearly all of his powers and wore a pretty boss looking coat), he makes The Scarlet Witch look like a really bad stage magician. There's a reason his title is/was Sorcerer Supreme (which I know you know...I'm just making a statement).

 

The total rage out people are having towards BvS is completely uncalled for. Sure it's not light hearted, sure there some plot holes but it was fun. I'm hopeful that Geoff Johns and Batfleck can help right the ship. I don't really like the tone that Snyder wants the whole universe to be. It doesnt need to be super quippy but it also does not need to be the bleakest darkness ever either. 

 

The over-the-top grimdark nature of BvS is reflective of the New (read: crappy) 52 imo...and I wouldn't count on Geoff Johns doing much of anything other than pushing Hal Jordan...when he finally makes his debut in the continuity.

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<i>Behold man's final mad disgrace.</i>

<i>He chops his nose to spite his face.</i>

 

-Etrigan the Demon

 

You guys have really rekindled my inner geek and I'm grateful...

 

 

 

This is an excellent point, Deacon and I agree completely. This is where I feel they may have missed the boat as far as the Vision is concerned. Sure, he's an android but he also fills the role (when compared to the Justice League) as the Martian Manhunter who's job it is to be the sounding board for everyone else...or it was...I don't know what J'onn is supposed to be these days and neither do the powers-that-be at DC.

 

That's their own fault though, Paul Bettany and Scarlet Johanssen specifically are good actors. There was more than enough talent to spread that emotion around even if they didn't trust Evans to be able to convey it properly. Edit: I remembered after I sent this they all were on the same side. Oh well, I guess that couldn't be helped.

 

 

I largely agree although I maintain my issues with Eisenberg's Luthor...I can't help but seeing a bad mix of The Riddler and The Joker whenever I see a clip of him. I'll need to re watch the movie soon. Maybe my opinion will change.

 

 

The the MCU should flip the <expletive> out when they get a load of Doctor Strange. At his pinnacle (you know, back before he ditched the cloak lost nearly all of his powers and wore a pretty boss looking coat), he makes The Scarlet Witch look like a really bad stage magician. There's a reason his title is/was Sorcerer Supreme (which I know you know...I'm just making a statement).

 

 

The over-the-top grimdark nature of BvS is reflective of the New (read: crappy) 52 imo...and I wouldn't count on Geoff Johns doing much of anything other than pushing Hal Jordan...when he finally makes his debut in the continuity.

Strange is going to be great and yeah if they maintain that type of fear/acceptance the world is going to lose it's collective ish.... To be fair he (comice book version) only makes this version of Scarlet Witch (MCU) look weak. Who's to say weather Strange is toned down? Maybe I am right and they are building her up? Where do they go after Thanos? Maybe it's her and they do a no more mutants story line ala a Jean Grey to Dark Phoenix.  

 

The good news is the New52 is over and Rebirth has begun, IMO, given it a great reason to exist in the first place. I won't spoil anything if here in case you were going to check it out.

 

I have more faith in him than you apprently. I also have faith in Afleck. He wanted this way to bad to watch it blow up. 

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Strange is going to be great and yeah if they maintain that type of fear/acceptance the world is going to lose it's collective ish.... To be fair he (comice book version) only makes this version of Scarlet Witch (MCU) look weak. Who's to say weather Strange is toned down? Maybe I am right and they are building her up? Where do they go after Thanos? Maybe it's her and they do a no more mutants story line ala a Jean Grey to Dark Phoenix.  

 

The good news is the New52 is over and Rebirth has begun, IMO, given it a great reason to exist in the first place. I won't spoil anything if here in case you were going to check it out.

 

I have more faith in him than you apprently. I also have faith in Afleck. He wanted this way to bad to watch it blow up. 

 

Surprisingly, I was never heavily invested in Doctor Strange outside of his stints in original The Defenders (now there's a super team for you). Doc, Surfer, Hulk, Valkyrie, Namor...yes please! In any case, I see your point. Wanda's powers have substantially grown over the years to the point that she's basically a walking Reality Gem and we don't know the extent of Strange's powers within the movie continuity yet so that definitely will be interesting.

 

One area I'm going to have to research is how they were able to use Quicksilver in the Avengers and in the X-Men. I never bothered to look before but I re-watched Days of Future Past last night in anticipation for X-Men: Apocalypse (which I know I'm going to have issues with already) and that jumped out at me.

 

I heard about Rebirth, but after the trainwreck that the New 52 was...can we really trust DC to right their sinking ship at this point? Outside of what they do to the Big Three, characters of note for me are the Martian Manhunter (who's been drifting aimlessly in the wind since New 52 launched), the Shazam continuity (because of my huge man-crush on Black Adam), Doctor Fate and Constantine.

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<i>Behold man's final mad disgrace.</i>

<i>He chops his nose to spite his face.</i>

 

-Etrigan the Demon

 

Surprisingly, I was never heavily invested in Doctor Strange outside of his stints in original The Defenders (now there's a super team for you). Doc, Surfer, Hulk, Valkyrie, Namor...yes please! In any case, I see your point. Wanda's powers have substantially grown over the years to the point that she's basically a walking Reality Gem and we don't know the extent of Strange's powers within the movie continuity yet so that definitely will be interesting.

 

One area I'm going to have to research is how they were able to use Quicksilver in the Avengers and in the X-Men. I never bothered to look before but I re-watched Days of Future Past last night in anticipation for X-Men: Apocalypse (which I know I'm going to have issues with already) and that jumped out at me.

 

I heard about Rebirth, but after the trainwreck that the New 52 was...can we really trust DC to right their sinking ship at this point? Outside of what they do to the Big Three, characters of note for me are the Martian Manhunter (who's been drifting aimlessly in the wind since New 52 launched), the Shazam continuity (because of my huge man-crush on Black Adam), Doctor Fate and Constantine.

Constantine is now a part of the main DC continuity if that does anything for you. I get the impression you would really like the Rebirth #1 one shot that precedes all the individual titles. It's pretty cheap for 80 pages. You should really check it out. 

 

It's hard to do a good Martian Manhunter. He's so ridiculously overpowered. 

 

Honestly as much as Flash messes with, fixes, messes with, and fixes again the universe(s) it really should be the big 4 shouldn't it?

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I just saw CA again and I have to say I appreciated it more the second time around. I'm still on Cap's side but can understand IM's point of view to an extent. A lot of people say Steve was wrong and he's going against character from everything we've seen up to now, but I disagree. He's always been loyal and done what he thought was right even if others didn't see it. Tony was the one who went against character, again I understand why to an extent. 

 

I've come to realize I do usually prefer these movies by the second or third viewing as opposed to the first. The first is so full of anticipation and you don't know what's going on and it's like sensory overload. Subsequent viewings you just enjoy the ride. The same with Star Wars: The Force Awakens. Much better the second time around. 

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BvS had these huge thematic elements. God versus man. The redemption of a hero from his darkest point. The realization that being invulnerable is in itself a weakness.


The dialogue was far better and I would argue that each of the three main characters had better lines than any in CW.


Batman- "The world only makes sense if you force it to." And "You're not brave. Men are brave." Prefect insight into the character.


Superman- "No one stays good in this world." The moment when incorruptible superman considers slipping to become the monster everyone fears he is.


Lex- "The secret to the height is the building material, which.... sways." And " I learned long ago that if God was all powerful, he could not be all good. And if he was all good, he could not be all powerful." Shows a man who stops at nothing to be the god of his own world.


Plus the soundtrack was absolutely incredible.


Sorry for the essay but people hate on BvS so much and I feel the need to defend it.

Lump me right into it. I think Marvel set this expectation on how superhero movies should be like, and when ol' DC tries to do it differently, they get bashed for it. I mean, realisticly, wouldn't the world be MORE lIke it is in the DC universe?

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Constantine is now a part of the main DC continuity if that does anything for you. I get the impression you would really like the Rebirth #1 one shot that precedes all the individual titles. It's pretty cheap for 80 pages. You should really check it out.


It's hard to do a good Martian Manhunter. He's so ridiculously overpowered.


Honestly as much as Flash messes with, fixes, messes with, and fixes again the universe(s) it really should be the big 4 shouldn't it?

Actually, I disagree. The DCAU has routinely nailed J'onn imo. He was the main draw for me during the JL/JLU run, until JLU introduced the Huntress and my man The Question. Hell, they even do an OK Jon with him in Supergirl but in retrospect, I think your thought here has some merit. I mean if Superman calls you the most powerful mortal on the planet, that speaks volumes.


I'll pick up Rebirth #1 this weekend on your recommendation. I don't think you'd lead me astray.


As far as the Flash goes, touche. The problem with the Flash is that people generally don't like Barry Allen compared to Wally West. I'd argue Jay Garrick is a more popular Flash. They keep trying to cram Barry Allen down our throats, it feels like and that's where they're going wrong.

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<i>Behold man's final mad disgrace.</i>

<i>He chops his nose to spite his face.</i>

 

-Etrigan the Demon

 

Lump me right into it. I think Marvel set this expectation on how superhero movies should be like, and when ol' DC tries to do it differently, they get bashed for it. I mean, realisticly, wouldn't the world be MORE lIke it is in the DC universe?

I don't mind the darker tone of DC that most people dislike so much. BvS for me was for me: just too much stuff put into one movie; Diana was portrayed all wrong (but Wonder Woman in action made up for it); I didn't like emo sulky Clark Kent/Superman without a story for it. I don't need things spelled out for me in movies, I usually get the gist of things, but there seemed to be no reason for his sullen behavior initially.


When I watch it again I will most likely appreciate it more just as I did with CW.

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I don't mind the darker tone of DC that most people dislike so much. BvS for me was for me: just too much stuff put into one movie; Diana was portrayed all wrong (but Wonder Woman in action made up for it); I didn't like emo sulky Clark Kent/Superman without a story for it. I don't need things spelled out for me in movies, I usually get the gist of things, but there seemed to be no reason for his sullen behavior initially.


When I watch it again I will most likely appreciate it more just as I did with CW.

What didn't you like about Diana? I thought her character was nearly a perfect adaptation from the source. 

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What didn't you like about Diana? I thought her character was nearly a perfect adaptation from the source. 

 

I believe I said it in the BvS thread. The Diana we saw was a Black Widow clone (to me)...not "Wonder Woman" until it was time to throw hands. Over the years, Diana hasn't really maintained much of an alter ego as I recall. She's the same strong, dominant woman in all aspects of her life. I'm used to a somewhat more aggressive Diana...this coy, demure flower we saw during most of BvS wasn't really what I had in mind. But all was redeemed when it was time to fight.

 

I just finished reading Rebirth #1 also. Color me intrigued...there was a Doctor Fate sighting (among other things), which pleases me. But I stand by what I said about Barry Allen...lol.

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<i>Behold man's final mad disgrace.</i>

<i>He chops his nose to spite his face.</i>

 

-Etrigan the Demon

 

I believe I said it in the BvS thread. The Diana we saw was a Black Widow ce)...not "Wonder Woman" until it was time to throw hands. Over the years, Diana hasn't really maintained much of an alter ego as I recall. She's the same strong, dominant woman in all aspects of her life. I'm used to a somewhat more aggressive Diana...this coy, demure flower we saw during most of BvS wasn't really what I had in mind. But all was redeemed when it was time to fight.  lone (to m

 

I just finished reading Rebirth #1 also. Color me intrigued...there was a Doctor Fate sighting (among other things), which pleases me. But I stand by what I said about Barry Allen...lol.

I was asking someone else what they thought but I appreciate your input. I didn't get that at all. I saw a person trying to stay under the radar because she was not ready to return to our world yet. She was just on a mission for herself. No reason to draw attention to herself. She was not supposed to be established in this setting like Super and Bats were. 

 

People like Barry just fine. I'm going to take a guess and assume you are younger, which would make sense that you like Wally more and that's understandable as he's a perfectly fine flash. I don't know a single that likes Jay over either of them however. That said, the second DC decided to be idiots and keep movies and TV universes separate they should have gone with Wally.

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I was asking someone else what they thought but I appreciate your input. I didn't get that at all. I saw a person trying to stay under the radar because she was not ready to return to our world yet. She was just on a mission for herself. No reason to draw attention to herself. She was not supposed to be established in this setting like Super and Bats were. 

 

Pretty much what Bizzaro said but what you said was how I was trying to take her character's motivation for her actions.

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I was asking someone else what they thought but I appreciate your input. I didn't get that at all. I saw a person trying to stay under the radar because she was not ready to return to our world yet. She was just on a mission for herself. No reason to draw attention to herself. She was not supposed to be established in this setting like Super and Bats were. 

 

People like Barry just fine. I'm going to take a guess and assume you are younger, which would make sense that you like Wally more and that's understandable as he's a perfectly fine flash. I don't know a single that likes Jay over either of them however. That said, the second DC decided to be idiots and keep movies and TV universes separate they should have gone with Wally.

 

There's a good chance, I'm older than you think. For reference, I started reading comics religiously right before Fall of the Mutants (I was around 12 at the time) and I stopped buying shortly after Claremont left the X-Men and they gave Jim Lee creative control. I can't quite put my finger on it, but I've never cared much for Barry Allen. He's one of those irrational dislikes of mine (and they are legion). I was being facetious about Jay Garrick, but I do have a soft spot for the JSA (go figure, two of my top 5 favorite DC characters are or were JSA members in Doctor Fate and Black Adam...yay JSA on Legends of Tomorrow btw).

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<i>Behold man's final mad disgrace.</i>

<i>He chops his nose to spite his face.</i>

 

-Etrigan the Demon

 

Doctor Fate

 

Only the full mask version of the original Kent Nelson though.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Only the full mask version of the original Kent Nelson though.

 

Definitely.

 

He's one of those characters that they never should have messed with, although I was OK with Inza taking up the mantle when she did. What came after, though...ugh...just brutal. Fate (Jared Stevens) stunk. And each subsequent incarnation seemed to get worse and worse until the Days of Vengeance, when it's just Nabu. His (Nabu's) confrontation with the Spectre still gives me goosebumps when I go back and read it.

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<i>Behold man's final mad disgrace.</i>

<i>He chops his nose to spite his face.</i>

 

-Etrigan the Demon