No police interrogations there is the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. Once they are found guilty they are still afforded constitutional rights, the way citizens (good or bad) are treated is vastly different then enemy combatants. That's just basic understanding of how the world works?

 

Your scenario of what I'd allow someone to do to me to save some made up life is irrelevant, the discussion is what is torture, and what is tolerable. I draw the line at purposefully causing pain to gain information under distress. Making it uncomfortable or simulating fear is not torture. 

Waterboarding is absolutely painful.  It's not simply "uncomfortable" or "simulating fear"  

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I was wrong about Trent Baalke. 

Waterboarding is absolutely painful.  It's not simply "uncomfortable" or "simulating fear"  

 

If water isn't entering the lungs how does it cause pain? From what FBT is telling me it simply mimics drowning by restricting air flow temporarily, that's not pain that's simulating fear. 

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If water isn't entering the lungs how does it cause pain? From what FBT is telling me it simply mimics drowning by restricting air flow temporarily, that's not pain that's simulating fear. 

I don't know about you, but I would certainly consider asphyxiation to be painful.

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I don't know about you, but I would certainly consider asphyxiation to be painful.

 

It's probably crossing that line but I'm not a military nor interrogation expert. If we are defining tolerable interrogation as causing NO pain at all what options do we leave the military with? Maybe it's permanent pain we should draw the line at? I don't know, this is an issue I just don't feel fully educated on to give a definitive answer. I'm against torture but how do you define it then?

 

I know shoving bamboo up finger nails is torture. I know chopping off limbs is torture. I know burning people is torture. I know shocking them is torture. I don't know if waterboarding is or isn't? 

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It's probably crossing that line but I'm not a military nor interrogation expert. If we are defining tolerable interrogation as causing NO pain at all what options do we leave the military with? Maybe it's permanent pain we should draw the line at? I don't know, this is an issue I just don't feel fully educated on to give a definitive answer. I'm against torture but how do you define it then?

 

I know shoving bamboo up finger nails is torture. I know chopping off limbs is torture. I know burning people is torture. I know shocking them is torture. I don't know if waterboarding is or isn't? 

Anything that the FBI/CIA/military think is worthy of the label "enhanced interrogation" is, in my opinion, torture with a politically-friendly name.

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To add even more complexity to this debate, say that the ISIS fighter that we captured turns out to be an American inspired by Islamism. Would it be ethical for the government to waterboard an American in the name of "enhanced interrogation"? regardless of his poor decision, he would still be a citizen who has basic civil liberties.

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To add even more complexity to this debate, say that the ISIS fighter that we captured turns out to be an American inspired by Islamism. Would it be ethical for the government to waterboard an American in the name of "enhanced interrogation"? regardless of his poor decision, he would still be a citizen who has basic civil liberties.

 

If he's captured as an enemy on the battlefield then he has forfeited his basic civil liberties.


 

And joining ISIS is a lot more than a "poor decision."

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"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

"Enhanced interrogation," "torture," whatever you want to call it, is just another example of how people will give up anything in order to feel safer.   They'll give up their freedoms, they'll give up their principles, they'll give up anything and everything this country stands for in order to feel safer.  

 

Let me ask all you guys who are okay with torturing prisoners this question.   Where do we stop?   If the police pick up an alleged drug dealer, should they be able to torture him in order to get him to give up his supplier?  

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Marty,

As far as I know the police in the US do not and have not used enhanced interrogation on anyone. A drug dealer arrested on some street corner in the US is a world away from an Al Qaeda or ISIS operative.

You cannot project western values onto Al Qaeda, ISIS or the Taliban. They simply think, believe and act in an entirely different way than the west. These are people that think nothing of strapping a bomb to a 5 year old kid and send him/her to blow up whatever. Most of the time that 5 year old is their own kid. Think about that for a minute.  The Taliban has a saying that" women are for babies and little boys are for fun". If you cannot figure out what that means , well lets just say its not good. Blowing up a crowded market and killing many civilians is considered a good day for Al Qaeda. One of Al Qaeda's favorite things is to blow something up and when emergency responders arrive they send in another suicide bomber. Oh yeah and they video all of this and sell the videos.

My point is, these people are vastly different in their worldview then most of the west. You cannot project our western worldview onto them and expect to get results.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by giving up freedoms., Again, I'm pretty sure the civilian police in the US are not waterboarding anyone.

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"Enhanced interrogation," "torture," whatever you want to call it, is just another example of how people will give up anything in order to feel safer.   They'll give up their freedoms, they'll give up their principles, they'll give up anything and everything this country stands for in order to feel safer.  

 

Let me ask all you guys who are okay with torturing prisoners this question.   Where do we stop?   If the police pick up an alleged drug dealer, should they be able to torture him in order to get him to give up his supplier?  

Well, at least they won't give up their guns.


I mean plenty of people have said "Torture doesn't work."  John McCain said it.  He said it based on his own experiences in Vietnam.  


To quote McCain himself:


 

 

 

the use of torture compromises that which most distinguishes us from our enemies, our belief that all people, even captured enemies, possess basic human rights.

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I was wrong about Trent Baalke. 

Several aspects to this issue.


First, waterboarding is not torture in my opinion. Thousands of service members have been waterboarded in training. Waterboarding is TOUGH and you will talk. Some folks talk after one session and some hold out longer but EVERYONE talks.

Sleep deprivation is more effective then waterboarding in my opinion, but it can be a drawn out process.

Again, I think waterboarding and sleep deprivation are more in line with enhanced interrogation, not torture.

I will speak to what I know about and that is enhanced interrogation.

If you define the enhanced interrogation as torture then I think we'll just have to disagree there.



Second, if you do not think enhanced interrogation works I beg to differ. People will give you answers but every single bit of intelligence is vetted by at least three other sources. Once the intelligence is verified as valid it can be acted upon. The US does not just rush off on a mission on one source of information. There is very careful vetting of all intelligence gained from detainees. There has been many successful operations conducted based on intelligence gained from enhanced interrogation.


Lastly, I'm against the use of real torture ( cutting off fingers , etc..) but enhanced interrogation works. War is a very nasty business, killing, destroying and interrogation is part of that. We can say we are better or above it but when American lives are on the line you do what is necessary.

Thanks Tom Clancy. In the real world, 'enhanced interrogation techniques,' which is propaganda for torture, is, indeed, torture. The forced simulation of drowning upon someone that hasn't been judged by a jury of his peers is torture.


Real life is not an episode of 24.


Torture produces absolutely zero actionable results. That's been shown time and time again. If you can prove otherwise, do so.

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If he's captured as an enemy on the battlefield then he has forfeited his basic civil liberties.


 

And joining ISIS is a lot more than a "poor decision."

 

Then he is a prisoner of war and subject to the Geneva Convention, which absolutely forbids the use of torture on prisoners of war.  

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Then he is a prisoner of war and subject to the Geneva Convention, which absolutely forbids the use of torture on prisoners of war.  

As George W. Bush might have said regarding the Geneva Convention:

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As George W. Bush might have said regarding the Geneva Convention:

Dick Cheney but yea

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Then he is a prisoner of war and subject to the Geneva Convention, which absolutely forbids the use of torture on prisoners of war.  

 

The Geneva Convention only applies to members of the military of foreign governments, in uniform or otherwise identified as such. It does not apply to members of terrorist groups, saboteurs, or spies.

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"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

Ah, you open with an attempted insult. Not smart to insult people you do not know.

 

If you think enhanced interrogation is torture so be it. I won't argue that point with anyone.

I've seen enhanced interrogation and the results of torture in person. There is a difference.

 

Enhanced interrogation produces actionable intelligence. You want me to prove it?

Don't agree or believe me? How about this, I could care less if you or anyone else believes it.

Think about this, if it did not produce results why would the US continue to use it? Do you think the folks using enhanced interrogation are just sick people that enjoy it.

Oh yeah it is still going on today.

If you would spend a little time on google with keep an open mind you would find all of the evidence. I won't do your leg work for you look for yourself.

Better yet join the military and go see for yourself.

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Ah, you open with an attempted insult. Not smart to insult people you do not know.


If you think enhanced interrogation is torture so be it. I won't argue that point with anyone.

I've seen enhanced interrogation and the results of torture in person. There is a difference.


Enhanced interrogation produces actionable intelligence. You want me to prove it?

Don't agree or believe me? How about this, I could care less if you or anyone else believes it.

Think about this, if it did not produce results why would the US continue to use it? Do you think the folks using enhanced interrogation are just sick people that enjoy it.

Oh yeah it is still going on today.

If you would spend a little time on google with keep an open mind you would find all of the evidence. I won't do your leg work for you look for yourself.

Better yet join the military and go see for yourself.

I could have typed that response for you, hoss. Anyways, saying it is not torture doesn't mean it's not torture. You are inflicting pain on a person without trial to extract 'evidence.' It's the kind of thing ISIS does. Strange bedfellows if you ask me. Personally, I'm not ok with American servicemen sticking hot dogs up peoples' butts on my dime. To each his own I guess.

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Ah, you open with an attempted insult. Not smart to insult people you do not know.

 

If you think enhanced interrogation is torture so be it. I won't argue that point with anyone.

I've seen enhanced interrogation and the results of torture in person. There is a difference.

 

Enhanced interrogation produces actionable intelligence. You want me to prove it?

Don't agree or believe me? How about this, I could care less if you or anyone else believes it.

Think about this, if it did not produce results why would the US continue to use it? Do you think the folks using enhanced interrogation are just sick people that enjoy it.

Oh yeah it is still going on today.

If you would spend a little time on google with keep an open mind you would find all of the evidence. I won't do your leg work for you look for yourself.

Better yet join the military and go see for yourself.

 

You can find plenty of evidence on google that says that torture doesn't work.  Here:


http://bfy.tw/VDD

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I was wrong about Trent Baalke. 

Enhanced interrogation produces actionable intelligence. You want me to prove it?

Don't agree or believe me? How about this, I could care less if you or anyone else believes it.

'Murrica

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Ah, you open with an attempted insult. Not smart to insult people you do not know.

 

If you think enhanced interrogation is torture so be it. I won't argue that point with anyone.

I've seen enhanced interrogation and the results of torture in person. There is a difference.

 

Enhanced interrogation produces actionable intelligence. You want me to prove it?

Don't agree or believe me? How about this, I could care less if you or anyone else believes it.

Think about this, if it did not produce results why would the US continue to use it? Do you think the folks using enhanced interrogation are just sick people that enjoy it.

Oh yeah it is still going on today.

If you would spend a little time on google with keep an open mind you would find all of the evidence. I won't do your leg work for you look for yourself.

Better yet join the military and go see for yourself.

northendzone,

 

 

Just out of curiosity, do you personally possess a special ops, or intelligence background? I'm not asking for any specific details, but your insight on this topic is important. Just a simple yes or no question.

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