I find it pretty "convenient" that Russia is in possession of the "black box" (or so they say...)  That could just be a bluff.

 

Sure, the technology is old (Vietnam era analog computing and vacuum tubes) and inexperienced users could make mistakes since there's no "visual"... but sorry, color me skeptical that Ukraine may have mistook it for Russian military.

 

It also seems far too "convenient" for Putin to blame Ukraine since he's "not invading" them.  After all, it's not like such a "mistake" by Ukraine would be a convenient reason for him to "punish" them (and possibly gain support for doing so.)

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"You do your own thing in your own time. You should be proud."

I find it pretty "convenient" that Russia is in possession of the "black box" (or so they say...)  That could just be a bluff.

 

Sure, the technology is old (Vietnam era analog computing and vacuum tubes) and inexperienced users could make mistakes since there's no "visual"... but sorry, color me skeptical that Ukraine may have mistook it for Russian military.

 

It also seems far too "convenient" for Putin to blame Ukraine since he's "not invading" them.  After all, it's not like such a "mistake" by Ukraine would be a convenient reason for him to "punish" them (and possibly gain support for doing so.)

 

There's definitely a possibility that Russia pulled the trigger, but I tend to think that scenario is the least feasible because if it was traced back to them, it would be an act of war.  Putin doesn't mind poking the bear with a stick because he knows he'll get a spineless response from the US right now, but even in our weakened state, if it was proven Russia did this the US, or more likely NATO would be forced to respond militarily. 

 

Where the missile was fired from is a good indicator that rebels were most likely the culprits.  It's irrefutable that they were given the missile batteries.  They've been shooting planes down in that region for a while now, including 2 more this week besides this one.  If you've got people operating these systems who only have enough understanding to know how to target and launch, but not enough to identify the target, anything is possible.  Based on what's transpired recently, it seems to me this would be the best case scenario.  If it turned out Russia is behind this?  That would be the worst case.  Either way, they're providing the weapons to the rebels. 

 

There needs to be some accountability there.  Unfortunately, it's becoming almost too clear that there's nobody on this side of the Atlantic with the stones to speak up, and countries in Europe won't do it because they have a dependency on Russia for their oil.  They don't want to jeopardize that. 

 

We don't need a declaration of war, but Russia needs to be put back in their box, and there are ways to accomplish that without having to fire a single shot.  Unfortunately, when we've gotten tough with them recently, we've frozen assets for a few citizens.  We haven't caused any real economic pain.  To date, this administration has shown it's unwilling to really clamp down.   

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Even if it's traced back Russia did it themselves why would that be an act of war? Unless we'd then assume they did on it purpose?


I don't see under any situation this would warrant a military response from anyone, stay out of it this is Ukraine and Russia problem I want nothing to do with it.

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This just keeps getting harder to accept. They just had a weapons expert on Fox News, he said the BUK system has a radar mode and a transponder mode. the transponder mode would've clearly shown that it's a commercial flight MH17. He also said it's believe that Russian Special Forces are running the resistance on the ground.

 

If it's Russian ie Trained Army why wouldn't they check the transponder mode? Again what advantage does Russia have to take down a commercial plane? It puts them in a horrible position, to me it's Ukraine that is benefiting from all o this, that's where I'd be looking.

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This just keeps getting harder to accept. They just had a weapons expert on Fox News, he said the BUK system has a radar mode and a transponder mode. the transponder mode would've clearly shown that it's a commercial flight MH17. He also said it's believe that Russian Special Forces are running the resistance on the ground.

 

If it's Russian ie Trained Army why wouldn't they check the transponder mode? Again what advantage does Russia have to take down a commercial plane? It puts them in a horrible position, to me it's Ukraine that is benefiting from all o this, that's where I'd be looking.

 

The Russians may have trained these guys but who knows how well, or if any of the Russian trainers were on site.  Could have been trigger happy punks wanting to use their weapon.

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Even if it's traced back Russia did it themselves why would that be an act of war? Unless we'd then assume they did on it purpose?


I don't see under any situation this would warrant a military response from anyone, stay out of it this is Ukraine and Russia problem I want nothing to do with it.

I agree we need to stay out of it, but what are the odds of that happening?


You got people like McCain and Hillary already blaming Russia before any hard evidence is recovered. Its like they want to go to war.


McCain was saying "there will be hell to pay". Uh, John, how do you know for sure that Russia is responsible? They like to jump to conclusions. They aren't interested in finding out what really happened as much as they just want to use the incident to fulfill a hidden agenda.


Bottom line, lets stay out of this... but its probably too late for that. Our government has already shown a vested interest in the current Ukrainian regime.

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This just keeps getting harder to accept. They just had a weapons expert on Fox News, he said the BUK system has a radar mode and a transponder mode. the transponder mode would've clearly shown that it's a commercial flight MH17. He also said it's believe that Russian Special Forces are running the resistance on the ground.

 

If it's Russian ie Trained Army why wouldn't they check the transponder mode? Again what advantage does Russia have to take down a commercial plane? It puts them in a horrible position, to me it's Ukraine that is benefiting from all o this, that's where I'd be looking.

A former colonel in the Russian Special Forces who was trained to use this system is the guy they're now reporting as overseeing this operation. It's not a bunch of hayseeds shooting planes down.


The reports continue to indicate they thought it was a transport plane and not a commercial airliner.


I'm not sure why this is so difficult to believe. As the evidence continues to come in, this is the most likely scenario.

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

A former colonel in the Russian Special Forces who was trained to use this system is the guy they're now reporting as overseeing this operation. It's not a bunch of hayseeds shooting planes down.


The reports continue to indicate they thought it was a transport plane and not a commercial airliner.


I'm not sure why this is so difficult to believe. As the evidence continues to come in, this is the most likely scenario.

Correct that's the report I heard on fox this guy is a trained Russian special forces operative and this system has a transponder and radar mode. So why the hell wouldn't a trained opporator switch to transponder mode before taking down the plane?


Maybe I'm just looking at it to hard but these days I question EVERYTHING especially when all the major networks come to the same conclusion.

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Sometimes, when every network is going down the same path, it's because that's what the facts are showing.

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Even if it's traced back Russia did it themselves why would that be an act of war? Unless we'd then assume they did on it purpose?

I don't see under any situation this would warrant a military response from anyone, stay out of it this is Ukraine and Russia problem I want nothing to do with it.

I'm not saying it would be an act of war against the US, but it would absolutely be an act of war against the Ukraine. Because Ukraine is a partner nation with NATO, if a war did break out, the US would be pulled into it as the largest military presence in NATO.


Do I think we wind up going to war over this? Probably not. I don't think we would need to. We could neuter Russia very quickly, and it wouldn't take anything more than one act by an unwilling administration that would reduce Russian influence over Europe economically.

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Sometimes, when every network is going down the same path, it's because that's what the facts are showing.

 

And sometimes it's because they've been told that's the narrative to push

 

I'm not saying it would be an act of war against the US, but it would absolutely be an act of war against the Ukraine. Because Ukraine is a partner nation with NATO, if a war did break out, the US would be pulled into it as the largest military presence in NATO.


Do I think we wind up going to war over this? Probably not. I don't think we would need to. We could neuter Russia very quickly, and it wouldn't take anything more than one act by an unwilling administration that would reduce Russian influence over Europe economically.

 

Agreed we need to stay out of it and we could neuter Russia economically, as for an act of War I'd call the invasion an act of war if that didn't warrant a Ukraine vs Russia war I don't see how this would. 

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Correct that's the report I heard on fox this guy is a trained Russian special forces operative and this system has a transponder and radar mode. So why the hell wouldn't a trained opporator switch to transponder mode before taking down the plane?


Maybe I'm just looking at it to hard but these days I question EVERYTHING especially when all the major networks come to the same conclusion.

 

I'm going to suggest something here without many facts to back it up.  My opinion is strictly what I know regarding both technologies.

 

I'm going to guess that the "radar mode" and "transponder mode" are the means that the system uses to track and/or target an airplane.

 

"Transponder mode" doesn't always identify an aircraft as being military or civilian.  An IFF transponder broadcasts different things depending on the "mode" in question.  In general, all aircraft broadcast via IFF what is called "mode C" which mostly gives altitude information if I remember correctly.

 

I suspect that the missile targeting system is able to gather information from both.  A missile targeting system really "doesn't care" if it's a friendly or a foe.  It only wants to know where the target is and how to get to it.

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

I'm going to suggest something here without many facts to back it up.  My opinion is strictly what I know regarding both technologies.

 

I'm going to guess that the "radar mode" and "transponder mode" are the means that the system uses to track and/or target an airplane.

 

"Transponder mode" doesn't always identify an aircraft as being military or civilian.  An IFF transponder broadcasts different things depending on the "mode" in question.  In general, all aircraft broadcast via IFF what is called "mode C" which mostly gives altitude information if I remember correctly.

 

I suspect that the missile targeting system is able to gather information from both.  A missile targeting system really "doesn't care" if it's a friendly or a foe.  It only wants to know where the target is and how to get to it.

 

Correct. Mode C provides altitude information and Mode 3 is an octal code used to identify the aircraft.  Usually they're slaved modes; either both are on or off.  It's used by both military and civilian aircraft.  

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And sometimes it's because they've been told that's the narrative to push

 

 

Agreed we need to stay out of it and we could neuter Russia economically, as for an act of War I'd call the invasion an act of war if that didn't warrant a Ukraine vs Russia war I don't see how this would. 

If Russia was behind shooting this airliner down, and it was done intentionally with malice, that's an act of war.  It doesn't matter that it's a Malaysian airliner.  It doesn't even matter if there were or were not Ukrainians on board. The goal, if Russia did this themselves, would be to provoke something.  It could very likely be considered an act of war.  You're right, the invasion itself should be considered as such, but it's never been openly confirmed that these incursion troops are Russian (even though the world knows they are). 

 

This whole thing is a joke.  It's Putin looking to rebuild the Soviet Union.  We've allowed him to bow up and play the bully because we're incapable of leading with any sort of authority in the world with this current crop of "leaders" who are determined to undermine the lead role the US has always taken in these instances.  This country has been tested repeatedly in the middle east, and now in eastern Europe, and over the past 5  years, the response has been impotent lip service that constantly changes.  Red lines are drawn, then re-written because we don't have a leader with the convictions to stand up for what is right in the world. 

 

That doesn't mean you have to go to war.  We've seen leaders who were able to use words and policies very effectively to box in our enemies in the past.  This bunch just doesn't seem to grasp the role this nation plays on a world stage, and the true influence that can be brought to action to deal with a resurgent Soviet Union.  We've retreated in almost every aspect of foreign policy over the past 5 years except for pandering to a certain sect.  Everyone else has been left to their own devices, and that void is now being filled by Russia as a result. 

 

Regarding the incident itself, the human story of this is becoming almost too tragic.  They left the bodies out there for almost 2 days before they finally started to collect the remains and put them into a refrigerated train car.  They've been preventing experts from getting into the crash zone to conduct any sort of investigation, and only agreed today to get out of the way.  Russia is instructing the rebels to allow crash investigators to access the scene, but we're now days past the incident, and no doubt they've picked through the wreckage to remove a lot of evidence.   

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

If Russia was behind shooting this airliner down, and it was done intentionally with malice, that's an act of war.  It doesn't matter that it's a Malaysian airliner.  It doesn't even matter if there were or were not Ukrainians on board. The goal, if Russia did this themselves, would be to provoke something.  It could very likely be considered an act of war.  You're right, the invasion itself should be considered as such, but it's never been openly confirmed that these incursion troops are Russian (even though the world knows they are). 

 

This whole thing is a joke.  It's Putin looking to rebuild the Soviet Union.  We've allowed him to bow up and play the bully because we're incapable of leading with any sort of authority in the world with this current crop of "leaders" who are determined to undermine the lead role the US has always taken in these instances.  This country has been tested repeatedly in the middle east, and now in eastern Europe, and over the past 5  years, the response has been impotent lip service that constantly changes.  Red lines are drawn, then re-written because we don't have a leader with the convictions to stand up for what is right in the world. 

 

That doesn't mean you have to go to war.  We've seen leaders who were able to use words and policies very effectively to box in our enemies in the past.  This bunch just doesn't seem to grasp the role this nation plays on a world stage, and the true influence that can be brought to action to deal with a resurgent Soviet Union.  We've retreated in almost every aspect of foreign policy over the past 5 years except for pandering to a certain sect.  Everyone else has been left to their own devices, and that void is now being filled by Russia as a result. 

 

No arguments here, I however tend to lean more towards an isolationist. I'm tired of being the worlds police force and frankly don't think we can afford it anymore. The problem goes beyond the incompetence of our current leaders, and stretches back over decades of taking regimes down to replace them to only have to go back and take them down again.

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If Russia was behind shooting this airliner down, and it was done intentionally with malice, that's an act of war. It doesn't matter that it's a Malaysian airliner. It doesn't even matter if there were or were not Ukrainians on board. The goal, if Russia did this themselves, would be to provoke something. It could very likely be considered an act of war. You're right, the invasion itself should be considered as such, but it's never been openly confirmed that these incursion troops are Russian (even though the world knows they are).


This whole thing is a joke. It's Putin looking to rebuild the Soviet Union. We've allowed him to bow up and play the bully because we're incapable of leading with any sort of authority in the world with this current crop of "leaders" who are determined to undermine the lead role the US has always taken in these instances. This country has been tested repeatedly in the middle east, and now in eastern Europe, and over the past 5 years, the response has been impotent lip service that constantly changes. Red lines are drawn, then re-written because we don't have a leader with the convictions to stand up for what is right in the world.


That doesn't mean you have to go to war. We've seen leaders who were able to use words and policies very effectively to box in our enemies in the past. This bunch just doesn't seem to grasp the role this nation plays on a world stage, and the true influence that can be brought to action to deal with a resurgent Soviet Union. We've retreated in almost every aspect of foreign policy over the past 5 years except for pandering to a certain sect. Everyone else has been left to their own devices, and that void is now being filled by Russia as a result.


Regarding the incident itself, the human story of this is becoming almost too tragic. They left the bodies out there for almost 2 days before they finally started to collect the remains and put them into a refrigerated train car. They've been preventing experts from getting into the crash zone to conduct any sort of investigation, and only agreed today to get out of the way. Russia is instructing the rebels to allow crash investigators to access the scene, but we're now days past the incident, and no doubt they've picked through the wreckage to remove a lot of evidence.

We don't know who really did this.


It very well could have been Ukraine. They also have these missiles.


And they put out a YouTube video supposedly as evidence to implicate Russia, however the time stamp embedded in the video is a day before the crash. Seems like Ukraine has the most to gain from this.

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We don't know who really did this.


It very well could have been Ukraine. They also have these missiles.


And they put out a YouTube video supposedly as evidence to implicate Russia, however the time stamp embedded in the video is a day before the crash. Seems like Ukraine has the most to gain from this.

According to reports, the Ukraine can account for every missile in their arsenal.

 

There is also satellite imagery showing the battery in question coming across the border from Russia, and then two batteries heading back to Russia, one with only 3 missiles. 

 

There is also tracking information that shows where the missile was launched from, and what the trajectory of that missile was right up to the point of impact.  The missile was launched from a rebel controlled area that was coincidentally the same area where these missile batteries were transported and confirmed to be in place thanks to satellite imagery.. That report was confirmed by none other than the US Secretary of State himself. 

 

They also have multiple captures of audio communications coming from rebel forces indicating they'd just shot down a jet, and also communications from the ground where these same rebels were being instructed on what to do with the black box once located, and the other GPS equipment that was tagged in large orange boxes. 

 

I think it's becoming pretty clear who was responsible.  The question is whether it was a case of mistaken identity, or if they simply didn't care what they shot down.

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

According to reports, the Ukraine can account for every missile in their arsenal.

 

There is also satellite imagery showing the battery in question coming across the border from Russia, and then two batteries heading back to Russia, one with only 3 missiles. 

 

There is also tracking information that shows where the missile was launched from, and what the trajectory of that missile was right up to the point of impact.  The missile was launched from a rebel controlled area that was coincidentally the same area where these missile batteries were transported and confirmed to be in place thanks to satellite imagery.. That report was confirmed by none other than the US Secretary of State himself. 

 

They also have multiple captures of audio communications coming from rebel forces indicating they'd just shot down a jet, and also communications from the ground where these same rebels were being instructed on what to do with the black box once located, and the other GPS equipment that was tagged in large orange boxes. 

 

I think it's becoming pretty clear who was responsible.  The question is whether it was a case of mistaken identity, or if they simply didn't care what they shot down.

 

C'mon now, Badger's fighting hard to get a good conspiracy out of this. You're just buying into the "agenda"!

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The sun's not yellow, it's chicken.

C'mon now, Badger's fighting hard to get a good conspiracy out of this. You're just buying into the "agenda"!

 

Yeah, I know.  I should probably stop watching and reading news accounts. 

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

C'mon now, Badger's fighting hard to get a good conspiracy out of this. You're just buying into the "agenda"!

 

Even the conspiracy guys are saying it's most likely Russia or Russian Backed Rebels at this point. I don't think anyone can deny WHO did it, the question really comes down to the WHY it was done and WHAT the response should be.

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