Can we please send Mariota a lovely fruit basket and see if he'll reconsider going pro?

---

twisty twisty

answer the question...what is it you like about manziel or makes you think he could be a franchise qb?

 

i do not understand it... i watch him and i see great feet but like rg3 an average arm padded by the fact that he moves like a greyhound.

 

You are without doubt the king of patronizing explanations.... explain to me  (patronizing tone is optional but encouraged) what I am missing about manziel that you, johnny jaguar, manziel in teal and all the other great thinkers without an obvious agenda see that I do not.

 

 

What does he do? He makes big plays consistently in big games. He loves the game and brings excitement & energy. What more do you need to see?

---

ukjag34, have you ever watched him play?

no kodiak

i am making this much of a fuss based on no film study

 

yes i have watched him play but with manziel i don't see it



can someone list his good points too me because no matter how many times I watch him, i just don't see it



 

i see these good points



fantastic feet-

no denying it shifty as a whippet and moves like a greyhound- can't argue with that is a true duel threat qb



improvisation-

shifts the pocket well can step up and throw or relocate the pocket or take off and get yards



can throw the ball from any position-

the best qb to my mind is aaron rodgers the factor that takes him above the other three (brees manning brady ) is that he can roll out and still throw just as well and throw on the run. manziel certainly has that ability and more



plays well under pressure-

has all that attention and still  brings it- fair play to the kid



reputation- 

would bring attention to town



so there's your good points, no denying them- reminds me of a more clutch rg3



bad points



 

relies too much on the read option-

manziel runs the ball far too often. His typical first down is a read option run for about 4-8. That puts him at 2nd and 4 which opens up his options so much and puts him under next to no pressure on the next down... he can run it... hand it off... short throw long throw eveything is possible.



 

that first read option run will not last or work in the nfl, nfl coaches will scheme for it and eliminate it- see rg3 and kapernick- it will work occassionally but not as often as manziel seems to need it to to work in college



 

sets his mind too early-

if manziel decides to pass he passes... the pocket can be collapsing around him and he will do pirouettes and back flip to get away but then lob a massive jump ball into the middle of the field instead of just running it for a couple of yards or just throwing it away



 

runs from clean pockets-

the slightest sign of pressure manziel will go, his pocket presence is excellent but i've only seen him step up when he had to, ie both de's coming round the sides and being pushed deep by his tackles. Kudos to him for stepping up on that occassion but typically he rolls out cutting off half the field



 

great receivers-

those jump balls and 50/ 50 passes usually go his way whilst even against bama people were coming wide open for him on the deep routes



Just notice as well when evans has a bad game or is well covered manziel puts up bad numbers



 

footwork-

he does this wierd hoppy thing when he is going to pass i can't really describe it but he sort of skips but it's higher than anything i've seen before... i wonder if it's looking over the line or constantly wanting to take off but he doesn't plant nicely and that makes him loose power and float a few of his throws



 

middling accuracy-

he hits his receiver but he rarely leads his receiver tending to hit the guy in the chest or behind them on crossing routes rather than leading them into space where they could pick up extra numbers. Some short passes tend to float on him too and regularly receivershave to leap or skip for the ball rather than pulling it in cleanly even on short throws.



 

He also throws a fair bit worse if he is under pressure whilst being held inside the pocket if he can roll out and relocate great



 

offensive style-

relies on spread offenses, shotgun sets and doesn't make very many presnap reads, goes through his progressions quite nicely but takes too many risks and is easily bated into squeezing the ball into a tight spot that isn't always there, it's high risk high reward but those sort of throws will be punished far more often in the nfl than in college



 

not to mention the size and personality issues that everyone is talking about



 

beyond his athleticism i don't see anything that seperates him from the rest and he reminds me of an rg3 or a kapernick but without that fierce zip kaep puts on the ball



 

but with manziel i am genuinely open to being proven wrong

---

That was actually a very good breakdown by UKJag and I agree pretty much completely. Unfortunately, historically the good attributes that Johnny possesses are typically skills that don't translate as well from college to the NFL, and his bad traits are ones that are exacerbated in the bigger/faster/stronger/more disciplined NFL. 

 

Basically, for Manziel to succeed in the NFL he needs to buck a very long history. That's awfully scary to bet on with the third pick to me. 

---

That was actually a very good breakdown by UKJag and I agree pretty much completely. Unfortunately, historically the good attributes that Johnny possesses are typically skills that don't translate as well from college to the NFL, and his bad traits are ones that are exacerbated in the bigger/faster/stronger/more disciplined NFL. 

 

Basically, for Manziel to succeed in the NFL he needs to buck a very long history. That's awfully scary to bet on with the third pick to me. 

Agreed on all accounts.  The Tebow comparisons are not far off on the fact that like you said, the good attributes don't translate well, and the bad really hurt when coming into the league.

---

Agreed on all accounts.  The Tebow comparisons are not far off on the fact that like you said, the good attributes don't translate well, and the bad really hurt when coming into the league.

I even admit he is a lot better than Tebow though. I graded Tebow as a non prospect as a QB and a late rounder as a TE/hback hybrid convert. And I am a huge UF fan.

---

Finish answering the question.... What should the Jaguars do then?

 

I'm a Bears fan. I don't "want" them to do anything. They can go a ton of different directions with Bridgewater off the board and much of it will depend on who goes second.

---

I'm a Bears fan. I don't "want" them to do anything. They can go a ton of different directions with Bridgewater off the board and much of it will depend on who goes second.

 

Where do you think they should go?

---

Where do you think they should go?

 

Clowney is the best prospect available if he slips, but they need a quarterback. I don't think any other QB is worth a top-three selection with Mariota returning to school. It's a difficult decision, especially if someone takes a QB at #2 and leaves Clowney there for the taking.

 

What are you trying to prove?

---

I even admit he is a lot better than Tebow though. I graded Tebow as a non prospect as a QB and a late rounder as a TE/hback hybrid convert. And I am a huge UF fan.

He is better than Tebow.  Even though he doesn't have a laser arm and great accuracy, I'd still take Manziel any day over Tebow.

---

no kodiak

i am making this much of a fuss based on no film study

 

yes i have watched him play but with manziel i don't see it


can someone list his good points too me because no matter how many times I watch him, i just don't see it



 
i see these good points


fantastic feet-

no denying it shifty as a whippet and moves like a greyhound- can't argue with that is a true duel threat qb


improvisation-

shifts the pocket well can step up and throw or relocate the pocket or take off and get yards


can throw the ball from any position-

the best qb to my mind is aaron rodgers the factor that takes him above the other three (brees manning brady ) is that he can roll out and still throw just as well and throw on the run. manziel certainly has that ability and more


plays well under pressure-

has all that attention and still  brings it- fair play to the kid


reputation- 

would bring attention to town


so there's your good points, no denying them- reminds me of a more clutch rg3


bad points



 
relies too much on the read option-

manziel runs the ball far too often. His typical first down is a read option run for about 4-8. That puts him at 2nd and 4 which opens up his options so much and puts him under next to no pressure on the next down... he can run it... hand it off... short throw long throw eveything is possible.



 
that first read option run will not last or work in the nfl, nfl coaches will scheme for it and eliminate it- see rg3 and kapernick- it will work occassionally but not as often as manziel seems to need it to to work in college



 
sets his mind too early-

if manziel decides to pass he passes... the pocket can be collapsing around him and he will do pirouettes and back flip to get away but then lob a massive jump ball into the middle of the field instead of just running it for a couple of yards or just throwing it away



 
runs from clean pockets-

the slightest sign of pressure manziel will go, his pocket presence is excellent but i've only seen him step up when he had to, ie both de's coming round the sides and being pushed deep by his tackles. Kudos to him for stepping up on that occassion but typically he rolls out cutting off half the field



 
great receivers-

those jump balls and 50/ 50 passes usually go his way whilst even against bama people were coming wide open for him on the deep routes


Just notice as well when evans has a bad game or is well covered manziel puts up bad numbers



 
footwork-

he does this wierd hoppy thing when he is going to pass i can't really describe it but he sort of skips but it's higher than anything i've seen before... i wonder if it's looking over the line or constantly wanting to take off but he doesn't plant nicely and that makes him loose power and float a few of his throws



 
middling accuracy-

he hits his receiver but he rarely leads his receiver tending to hit the guy in the chest or behind them on crossing routes rather than leading them into space where they could pick up extra numbers. Some short passes tend to float on him too and regularly receivershave to leap or skip for the ball rather than pulling it in cleanly even on short throws.



 
He also throws a fair bit worse if he is under pressure whilst being held inside the pocket if he can roll out and relocate great



 
offensive style-

relies on spread offenses, shotgun sets and doesn't make very many presnap reads, goes through his progressions quite nicely but takes too many risks and is easily bated into squeezing the ball into a tight spot that isn't always there, it's high risk high reward but those sort of throws will be punished far more often in the nfl than in college



 
not to mention the size and personality issues that everyone is talking about



 
beyond his athleticism i don't see anything that seperates him from the rest and he reminds me of an rg3 or a kapernick but without that fierce zip kaep puts on the ball



 
but with manziel i am genuinely open to being proven wrong

I come home to read this worthless crud. Why? I don't feel like writing this but here goes......


Relies Too Much On Read Option.............

What do you think? Does he have a choice in the matter. This is the system he came into. Why do they do it? Because it works. What's wrong with 2nd and 4? Why would you change a winning game.....in any sport? Will he use it in the pros. No.....his coach won't REQUIRE him too.


Set's His Mind Too Early.................

"if he decides to pass he passes". Whaaat? What does that mean? When Rodgers decides to pass.....by golly....he passes too. "Lob a massive jump ball into the middle of the field". Really....you're resorting to that card? Weak. After a miraculous escape he tossed it up to the tallest guy in the area. A calculated risk. It worked and I haven't it again since. I've watched all his games. When one's defense is so bad that they can never stop the opposing offenses, you are under a special kind of pressure. You must take some chances.....or lose. That's what many of you guys never consider.


Runs From Clean Pockets..............

Sometimes he does. Sometimes he doesn't. After going thru his reads and nobody is open, then he will leave the pocket (a la Wilson) and threaten to run......which often loosens up the coverage so the receiver gets free. He does it with success and regularity. He is always looking downfield but if no defender releases.....he runs. He will do this in the NFL.......but he will slide......or go out of bounds after the gain.


Great Receivers............Wow. Really? Evans. Where has he been the last 3 games? 51 yards. 8 yards. 72 yards respectively. His stock is dropping. Who else is great? Anyone in the top 75? No. Labhart a great receiver. Kennedy? Walker?Clear? Gonzalez? They're just guys. Decent. Far from great. That was a real reach.


Footwork..................

You act like he is hopping high and having to wait to hit the ground. They're very short, lightning quick steps and hops. His release is one of the fastest quick releases in college I heard the announcers say. My eyes tell me that I've never seen quicker feet. It a strength that allows him to avoid defenders and extend plays. It's one of the things that makes him great.


Accuracy..............

I don't know who you're watching.....but it can't be Manziel. He is dead accurate most of the time.....even on the roll.....left or right. Now if you watched him after the Mississippi State game, then you have a point. He couldn't throw. His thumb was all swollen from jamming it into a helmet at the end of the game. Before that, he averaged 49 points a game. Against LSU and Missouri, he was ineffective. After the regular season, I knew he would blow up and said it on the game thread early. I knew his thumb was healed. During the bowl game, his accuracy was spot on.....in and out of the pocket.


Offensive Style........

To me, this concerns me. It's not his style....it's A&M's style. His back up have to play the same way. Can he adapt to a pro style? That is the gamble. I would be he can.......but my job doesn't depend on his success. Time will tell. Someone will take him in the top ten if not top five.


Size And Personality..........

He's the same size as Brees. But he's only 20 and reportedly still growing. Personality? Overblown big time. He is devoted to team and team is devoted to him. Also Luke Joeckel.



Gee I can't believe that I took the time to refute this junk. No disrespect but this gets old fast. I can't prove anything and neither can you or I or Caldwell. The only one who can prove you wrong is Manziel himself. Whichever team he goes to.....it will be one wild ride. He may bust. He may be the next Joe Montana. Manziel has been under a very special kind of pressure this year. He is under pressure to score a touchdown on every single possession........because his defense will not be able to stop the other offense. Think about that kind of pressure for a minute. Heck, Duke never needed the punter the whole game. He could have stayed home. Ladies and Gents, it is my conclusion that this guy has "IT". Goodnight and Happy New Year.

Burt Jason

---

Clowney is the best prospect available if he slips, but they need a quarterback. I don't think any other QB is worth a top-three selection with Mariota returning to school. It's a difficult decision, especially if someone takes a QB at #2 and leaves Clowney there for the taking.

 

What are you trying to prove?

 

Nothing. You said you have a crystal ball, so I'm just curious as where you think a team should go if Bridgewater is gone (which I'm sure he will be).

---

Excellent post.

---

"Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other." Galatians 5:26

2015 NFL Draft - Analyzing Targets www.jungle.jaguars.com/index.php?/topic/7892-2015-nfl-draft-analyzing-targets/

Nothing. You said you have a crystal ball, so I'm just curious as where you think a team should go if Bridgewater is gone (which I'm sure he will be).

 

JaguarsWoman deserves nothing but sarcasm.

---

I think Mack is the best defensive player in the draft. I'll be hot if we pass him at three. Dude does everything from the middle of the field all the way to the quarterback.

---

I'm surprised that Manziels accuracy has come up as a criticism of him. I've watched quite a few of his games in the last year, and he's always seemed accurate both in the pocket and on the move. Granted I didnt watch the game where he was injured.

 

I think the main thing to remember here is that everyone knows that Manziel will be a risk, its a question of if the reward is worth it. As previous posters have said, if he can adapt to the pro style while still keeping his intangebles he'll be an excellent QB.

 

Personally if him (or Bridgewater) are there at 3, we should pick them, irrespective of Clowney being there. Clowney is like the final piece of a jigsaw, we're currently missing most of the pieces. What is going to make this team improve more, an extra piece on defence (granted elite) who will affect 19% of the game (if I remember the stats correctly) or taking a risk on a QB (and by this I only refer to Bridgewater and Manziel, as I'm not sold on the others) who will affect half the game. Our current defence is even servicable enough to cope as it is, but obviously we will add some pieces in FA and maybe in the draft. One of the main problems last year was our offence constantly going 3 and out and the defence being on the field every 5th play.

---

clowney is over rated, he did nothing this year to prove himself. don't believe the clowney hype. Johnny football belongs in Jacksonville. JACKSONVILLE MANAGEMENT WOULDN'T KNOW TALENT IF IT HIT THEM IN THE FACE, DON'T BE A STUPID FOOL AND DRAFT OVER RATED CLOWNEY, YOU HAVE ONE OF THE BEST COLLEGE QB EVER FALLING RIGHT INTO YOUR LAP , YOU CANT MESS THIS ONE UP. GO JOHNNY "FOOTBALL" MANZIEL.

---

@burtjason

firstly i'd like to thank you for being the first person on this board to defend his footballing ability which was exactly what I was looking for, rather than people just blindly saying, oh he is awesome and not explaining why. The response is appreciated even if it was filled with petty little jibes.

 

it's a forum everything said here is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things but the sole reason to come here is to discuss to disagree and post points and counterpoints so don't get your panties in a wad.

 

Everything either of us has said is entirely subjective and i agree with you somewhat, if caldwell picks him I will roll my eyes bite my lip and go on cheering regardless. If he is our franchise qb I will be delighted to admit I'm wrong and submit a full repentance.

 

You can amp up my criticisms and mock them as much as you like, my point as with most things are entirely subjective so it's fair enough and perhaps I am too harsh on him

 

but this draft coming up is so important andif we miss on the qb again with the number 3 pick it's mediocrity for us for another 2-3 years

 

plus he will not get the time to adjust, he will be thrown straight in their and expected to produce on one offseason

 

Whatever you say about his style being enforced on him his feet are such a massive part of his success if teams can negate that and they can... we all have seen it with rg3 kap etc i just don't feel he has the arm to compensate or the time to develop it

---

@burtjason

firstly i'd like to thank you for being the first person on this board to defend his footballing ability which was exactly what I was looking for, rather than people just blindly saying, oh he is awesome and not explaining why. The response is appreciated even if it was filled with petty little jibes.

 

it's a forum everything said here is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things but the sole reason to come here is to discuss to disagree and post points and counterpoints so don't get your panties in a wad.

 

Everything either of us has said is entirely subjective and i agree with you somewhat, if caldwell picks him I will roll my eyes bite my lip and go on cheering regardless. If he is our franchise qb I will be delighted to admit I'm wrong and submit a full repentance.

 

You can amp up my criticisms and mock them as much as you like, my point as with most things are entirely subjective so it's fair enough and perhaps I am too harsh on him

 

but this draft coming up is so important andif we miss on the qb again with the number 3 pick it's mediocrity for us for another 2-3 years

 

plus he will not get the time to adjust, he will be thrown straight in their and expected to produce on one offseason

 

Whatever you say about his style being enforced on him his feet are such a massive part of his success if teams can negate that and they can... we all have seen it with rg3 kap etc i just don't feel he has the arm to compensate or the time to develop it

I'm sorry if I came off a little terse. I am tired of coming in here and having every thread hijacked by Manziel and anti Manziel groups. It's getting old. Manziel isn't even my favorite quarterback. I admit that he is a risk. Personally, I'd be happy with him, Teddy, Bortles, Clowney or Watkins. I'm new here. What I've been seeing is one guy attacked relentlessly. And often, I find that it's personal. They don't like the fact that he grew up a rich boy. Spoiled. Seeks self attention. Is a "me" guy. And the accusations border on the ridiculous. They don't like his persona. My only concern is....can he produce results here in Jacksonville? I want to win. That's what I care about. Period. No agenda. Anyway, I do appreciate your post. I can tell that you are passionate about the team as many others here. You did have some good points. Others, I felt, weren't quite accurate. We can both agree that taking him is not without risk. Time will tell if Dave decides to take that risk.

Yours Truly

Burt Jason

---

By the way....expert draft analysis on 1010XL right now at around 3:15....local radio and internet.....

---