He is not even in the Top 20 for passer rating... you better check that again.  And you're looking for his trade value on the Falcon fan board?  lmao.  C'mon man.  We got a 4th for Foles.  We would get at MAX a 5th for Minshew.  And he'd be a back up wherever he went.

---

You have a call on line 1 from Russell Wilson.

My mistake I meant to type passing stats. He's top 10 in overall passing stats:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/player/_/...s/dir/desc

And I saw the falcons fan comments (originally posted on facebook) posted on Twitter, I thought that was amusing. I've seen other fans say they wouldn't mind seeing their team trade for him including Cowboys fans, 49ers, Bears fans, etc...

At this point, he probably wouldn't start right away from another team. But things like injuries and really bad play do happen and he could find himself as a starter again at some point. Maybe sooner than later. I definitely could see him succeeding somewhere like the Patriots, a team with very smart coaching who's been good at knowing/finding out what their identity is/needs to be. They did it with Brady, and they were doing it with Cam for the first couple of weeks he played. Cam didn't look so good the last game, but maybe he will end up rebounding. I don't know. If not though Gardner could be a potential trade target for them.

Or somewhere like the Saints, or Steelers, with their good coaching staffs. He might have to wait a bit but those are good spots for him. I could see Drew retiring in the next year or two, and Mike Tomlin was having success with Duck Hodges. 

If Gardner's going to go back to being a backup he would be better off as a backup for a better team than a backup for the Jags. At least with some other teams he will get good coaching/have better support, so should he have to/given the opportunity to start again, he'll be better off. I could definitely see him starting again in the NFL, should he leave the Jags. Which I believe will probably happen. He'll either be traded or leave after his rookie contract is up. He will not want to stay with the Jags if they bench him again. Nor should he. He'll only be 26 when his contract is up and could go and try and get a starter position for a better team.

Well, we will agree to disagree, my friend.  You are always a respectful and thoughtful poster, but we just don't see things the same way here.  I can't see a team trading for him to develop him into a starting QB after Brees or Big Ben or Cam Newton leaves...  that would be a dramatic drop-off in talent.  He is destined to be a career journey-man / back up.  His ceiling to me is a Case Keenum type, but I think he will have to work to get even to there.  Time will tell!

---

This is a results-oriented business.  There are no trophies or titles given for "moral victories" or for "winning the draft".  Our record with DC is 37-86.  6-10 is our 2nd best season in 8 years of Caldwell leadership.  These are the FACTS.

My mistake I meant to type passing stats. He's top 10 in overall passing stats:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/player/_/...s/dir/desc

And I saw the falcons fan comments (originally posted on facebook) posted on Twitter, I thought that was amusing. I've seen other fans say they wouldn't mind seeing their team trade for him including Cowboys fans, 49ers, Bears fans, etc...

At this point, he probably wouldn't start right away from another team. But things like injuries and really bad play do happen and he could find himself as a starter again at some point. Maybe sooner than later. I definitely could see him succeeding somewhere like the Patriots, a team with very smart coaching who's been good at knowing/finding out what their identity is/needs to be. They did it with Brady, and they were doing it with Cam for the first couple of weeks he played. Cam didn't look so good the last game, but maybe he will end up rebounding. I don't know. If not though Gardner could be a potential trade target for them.

Or somewhere like the Saints, or Steelers, with their good coaching staffs. He might have to wait a bit but those are good spots for him. I could see Drew retiring in the next year or two, and Mike Tomlin was having success with Duck Hodges. 

If Gardner's going to go back to being a backup he would be better off as a backup for a better team than a backup for the Jags. At least with some other teams he will get good coaching/have better support, so should he have to/given the opportunity to start again, he'll be better off. I could definitely see him starting again in the NFL, should he leave the Jags. Which I believe will probably happen. He'll either be traded or leave after his rookie contract is up. He will not want to stay with the Jags if they bench him again. Nor should he. He'll only be 26 when his contract is up and could go and try and get a starter position for a better team.

Well, we will agree to disagree, my friend.  You are always a respectful and thoughtful poster, but we just don't see things the same way here.  I can't see a team trading for him to develop him into a starting QB after Brees or Big Ben or Cam Newton leaves...  that would be a dramatic drop-off in talent.  He is destined to be a career journey-man / back up.  His ceiling to me is a Case Keenum type, but I think he will have to work to get even to there.  Time will tell!

I could see Minshew making a late run in his career assuming he is still in the league. He has a great football IQ, and I’m sure when he watches the tapes he is kicking himself. I could definitely see him coming into his zone 5-7 years from now. The problem is, we as an org can’t take that gamble and wait out that period with him. He didn’t enter the league with a pedigree one would have to be a franchise QB. There is currently no evidence he will ever have a higher ceiling and it would be a gamble for any organization to wait and see with him.

---

My mistake I meant to type passing stats. He's top 10 in overall passing stats:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/player/_/...s/dir/desc

And I saw the falcons fan comments (originally posted on facebook) posted on Twitter, I thought that was amusing. I've seen other fans say they wouldn't mind seeing their team trade for him including Cowboys fans, 49ers, Bears fans, etc...

At this point, he probably wouldn't start right away from another team. But things like injuries and really bad play do happen and he could find himself as a starter again at some point. Maybe sooner than later. I definitely could see him succeeding somewhere like the Patriots, a team with very smart coaching who's been good at knowing/finding out what their identity is/needs to be. They did it with Brady, and they were doing it with Cam for the first couple of weeks he played. Cam didn't look so good the last game, but maybe he will end up rebounding. I don't know. If not though Gardner could be a potential trade target for them.

Or somewhere like the Saints, or Steelers, with their good coaching staffs. He might have to wait a bit but those are good spots for him. I could see Drew retiring in the next year or two, and Mike Tomlin was having success with Duck Hodges. 

If Gardner's going to go back to being a backup he would be better off as a backup for a better team than a backup for the Jags. At least with some other teams he will get good coaching/have better support, so should he have to/given the opportunity to start again, he'll be better off. I could definitely see him starting again in the NFL, should he leave the Jags. Which I believe will probably happen. He'll either be traded or leave after his rookie contract is up. He will not want to stay with the Jags if they bench him again. Nor should he. He'll only be 26 when his contract is up and could go and try and get a starter position for a better team.

So are you a Minshew fan or a Jaguars fan? Whats your priority? 

If you are just a fan of Minshews than I am sure there are more appropriate mediums for that use than a board dedicated to the betterment of the Jaguars. 

Your prioritization of Minshews career indicates most of your posts are confirmation bias.

I'm both. And I also love football in general. Which is why I'm always starting weekly game threads, threads about players in the league section, lol.

I want the Jags to be successful. I want Gardner to be successful. It would be nice if they could do it together, lol. But it looks like that probably won't happen. It does get tiresome of seeing people attacking Gardner who is still technically a Jag, when he is one of the players on this team that is trying and IMO one of the bright spots on this team.

That's why I suggested the team could trade him so both the team and him could benefit in some ways. And possibly the fans, including some of you that think he garbage. If he's traded you as Jags fans won't have to deal with him being on the team. 

My discussing trading Gardner to another team in a move that could benefit both him and the Jags is not inappropriate. It's certainly not any more inappropriate than those of you who constantly talk about how much you wish the team had other QB's instead of Gardner. And players in general instead of Jags players.  People over here do that all of the time, in threads on the Jags sections. It's always people saying they prefer Kyler, Justin Herbert and Fields, Joe, Trevor, etc...etc... in these threads. And they aren't Jags players. H 

At least when I talk about Gardner, he's an actual Jags player. At least for now until he probably inevitably leaves this team.

Though, I'll tell you what. Should Gardner be traded/go to another team and perform well, I will try and to mostly limit my thoughts about that to the league section of this forum. I hope that will be an appropriate enough move for you and others, lol.

---

So are you a Minshew fan or a Jaguars fan? Whats your priority? 

If you are just a fan of Minshews than I am sure there are more appropriate mediums for that use than a board dedicated to the betterment of the Jaguars. 

Your prioritization of Minshews career indicates most of your posts are confirmation bias.

I'm both. And I also love football in general. Which is why I'm always starting weekly game threads, threads about players in the league section, lol.

I want the Jags to be successful. I want Gardner to be successful. It would be nice if they could do it together, lol. But it looks like that probably won't happen. It does get tiresome of seeing people attacking Gardner who is still technically a Jag, when he is one of the players on this team that is trying and IMO one of the bright spots on this team.

That's why I suggested the team could trade him so both the team and him could benefit in some ways. And possibly the fans, including some of you that think he garbage. If he's traded you as Jags fans won't have to deal with him being on the team. 

My discussing trading Gardner to another team in a move that could benefit both him and the Jags is not inappropriate. It's certainly not any more inappropriate than those of you who constantly talk about how much you wish the team had other QB's instead of Gardner. And players in general instead of Jags players.  People over here do that all of the time, in threads on the Jags sections. It's always people saying they prefer Kyler, Justin Herbert and Fields, Joe, Trevor, etc...etc... in these threads. And they aren't Jags players. H 

At least when I talk about Gardner, he's an actual Jags player. At least for now until he probably inevitably leaves this team.

Though, I'll tell you what. Should Gardner be traded/go to another team and perform well, I will try and to mostly limit my thoughts about that to the league section of this forum. I hope that will be an appropriate enough move for you and others, lol.

I appreciate your threads, always have. The point I was trying to make is that I feel like you have invested personal feelings for a player and it’s giving you confirmation bias. I get it... I really like Minshew. He’s probably the most likable guy to enter the league in years for me. 

This organization is in a very bad place. There are so so many things wrong with it. We most likely have a whole new front office next year with 2 first round picks. How often does that happen? 

I’ve personally never said Minshew is garbage....I’m garbage lol...he’s a guy that has been paid to play a sport I love at the professional level. If he stopped tomorrow he will have accomplished more than anyone on this board, myself included. 

With that said- does he pass the eye test for you? Would you really pass on a possible elite QB talent next year with our draft capital? 

As we have seen with Bortles, a bad decision, can cost many years of fan heartache.

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It's a vicious circle. Wish I could rely on crow eating to go around, but honestly this team is perpetually stuck in mediocreville it'll take these players going on other teams to see their potential, if they're not ruined first.

There is mediocre.  There is bad.  There is absolute trash.  And then there is us and the Jets looking up at absolute trash from about 20 feet below.

I'd be happy with "mediocreville" right now, but we aren't even close.  We are so bad that you guys believe in and defend a 6th round QB with a noodle arm who holds the ball too long as a franchise savior.  Its a Jags fan version of beaten-wife syndrome... "he's not so bad!"  

Fair we're worse than mediocre. But if we don't make then playoffs I could care less if we have 8 wins or 0.

I wouldn't be forced to defend him if he wasn't unfairly criticized at every twist and turn. I'm not advocating we don't look to upgrade, we should in theory be looking to upgrade at every position. I just believe that QB is not even in our top 5 of positional needs at the moment. Minshew is clearly an upgrade over Bortles, or Gabbert. Which means he's the best QB we've had in damn near 20 years. Does that mean there aren't QBs that are better? No.

Does that mean that we shouldn't try to find a QB that's better? No.

I'd love to see Russell Wilson go 4-12 with this team, just to prove a point.

Our defense is giving up 55 yards less per game than theirs is.  The difference?  A real franchise quarterback.

How many points did our team give up again? A real Franchise QB is going to do what? Reliably I put up 40+ points a game? 

You're missing the point and getting caught up in hypotheticals. The team is giving up 30+ points every game. And that's before we even talk about all the coaching and special teams gaffs we've always been plagued with.

---

All this talk about Gardner being a bum. What about the fact that our defense is literally setting records for points allowed? We just gonna gloss over that, because obviously a FrAnChIsE qB would be able to overcome that and win gamez! I also see people defending our offensive line? Jesus, they haven't played well since 2017, get a clue.


I swear the decades of losing Jags teams have tainted this fanbase. Ya'll don't know what a good QB looks like because we need more than a good QB to fix this team. It's a shame because in 2017 a good QB would have made us SB contenders but now we're basically back at square one with only a few young players to build around but half the fan base is already trying to get rid of said young players.

It's a vicious circle. Wish I could rely on crow eating to go around, but honestly this team is perpetually stuck in mediocreville it'll take these players going on other teams to see their potential, if they're not ruined first.

Start a thread about.... in the meantime this one is about Minshew. 

Stats don’t tell the full story. I remember a fantastic year of fantasy football at the office where I came in and won in a 12 person league. I played Bortles... He had great stats! Tons of TDs and yards... 

Can we just use the eye test for once? What do you see? Do you see Minshew scrambling too early and throwing short throws? I do! When receivers are getting upset there is a reason. They know more than any of us as they know the plays, the timing, the routes and they are running them. Chark has not been known as a problem child the last 3 years and yet now he’s clearly unhappy. 

QBR isn’t everything but clearly it’s accurately dialing in on Minshew being 25th. 

Off topic- I think many of the defensive woes are on Wash... replace him and you fix a lot of issues. I can’t say a new OC will fix Minshews.

You talk of stats not telling the full story, yet choose to evaluate Minshew in a vacuum ignoring the various atrocities that plague our team. 

You bring up Bortle's one year of garbage time stats, yet how many of Minshew's stats come from garbage time do you reckon? Also Bortle's could never throw a spiral, so there's that.

Using the eye test, I see a young QB struggling on a team plagued with a ton of issues. I see flashes of promise, but I see some problems as well. 

Other than his height, most of his problems can be fixed in theory.

Again I'm not suggesting we should put all our eggs in the Minshew basket. But calling him a bust relegated to bench duties the rest of his carrier is just alarmist and lacking of higher critical thinking. There's an area between Minshew is the neatest and Minshew is a bum. Somewhere in there lies the facts. But it's clouded by typical Jag ineptitude.

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That throw to Conley was a timing pass.. Anything that’s not a timing throw Minshew has trouble. He’s just not good in the pocket. Once he put his head down the play is over. Minshew is 6’1”..Baker Mayfield is 6’1” ..Kyle Murray is 5’10” and they both are better throwing pocket QB’s than Minshew.

That’s what the west coast offense is: timing passes. I think a lot of people here don’t understand what a west coast offense is.

Minshew is supposed to make reads. The Conley throw was a timing route with favorable coverage(cover 0) pre snap.

We have no idea what his reads are. Head coaches have even said in the past that there is no way to know what reads an opposing offense is making. It’s a guess on our part. He makes his reads and then dumps off if nothing is open. That’s the play. So these downfield open receivers people are talking about are either not in his progressions or were not open at the time he looked for them.



From Wikipedia about a west coast offense:
[font=-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont,]“WCO" plays unfold quicker than in traditional offenses and are usually based on timing routes by the receivers. In this offense the receivers also have reads and change their routes based on the coverages presented to them. The quarterback makes three reads and if no opportunity is available after three reads, the QB will then check off to a back or tight end.“[/font]

Also when there is immediate pressure allowed, timing goes out the window so the QB is forced to hold the ball because the play is now destroyed.  
He also holds the ball in these situations because he has the ability to create. Each week, that ability to create has popped up more and more as he has learned the offense and where guys will be.

This comment kind of got lost in some of the recent talk about Gardner, Kyler and other QB's. But I did have some questions for you PS9, about Gardner and his play in the West Coast offense

Do you see him and the team actually getting better in this offense as the season goes on. I know the Jags have been struggling this year, including the offense as of late. But yesterday's game, they actually looked better than they have in a while. I noticed they started to look better when they sped things up. And definitely better when Gruden actually made good on his promise to utilize James Robinson. Gruden has promised for weeks to not abandon the run, and each week he kept doing it. This week he actually doesn't do it and the offense looks much better. And the Jags end up being competitive. Who knows maybe if that fourth down play is converted, we don't have that fumble, etc... the Jags might have won.

That loss really did remind me more of the Titans loss. And the first time we've seen in a bit the Jags actually put up close to 30 points. Which was around their average after the first two games this season. If the Jags have any sense they will really do their best to keep James going, because he played a big role in the team actually being competitive, not getting blown out badly yesterday. I'm curious to see how the offense performs against the Texans coming out of the bye week.

---

Start a thread about.... in the meantime this one is about Minshew. 

Stats don’t tell the full story. I remember a fantastic year of fantasy football at the office where I came in and won in a 12 person league. I played Bortles... He had great stats! Tons of TDs and yards... 

Can we just use the eye test for once? What do you see? Do you see Minshew scrambling too early and throwing short throws? I do! When receivers are getting upset there is a reason. They know more than any of us as they know the plays, the timing, the routes and they are running them. Chark has not been known as a problem child the last 3 years and yet now he’s clearly unhappy. 

QBR isn’t everything but clearly it’s accurately dialing in on Minshew being 25th. 

Off topic- I think many of the defensive woes are on Wash... replace him and you fix a lot of issues. I can’t say a new OC will fix Minshews.

You talk of stats not telling the full story, yet choose to evaluate Minshew in a vacuum ignoring the various atrocities that plague our team. 

You bring up Bortle's one year of garbage time stats, yet how many of Minshew's stats come from garbage time do you reckon? Also Bortle's could never throw a spiral, so there's that.

Using the eye test, I see a young QB struggling on a team plagued with a ton of issues. I see flashes of promise, but I see some problems as well. 

Other than his height, most of his problems can be fixed in theory.

Again I'm not suggesting we should put all our eggs in the Minshew basket. But calling him a bust relegated to bench duties the rest of his carrier is just alarmist and lacking of higher critical thinking. There's an area between Minshew is the neatest and Minshew is a bum. Somewhere in there lies the facts. But it's clouded by typical Jag ineptitude.

What you fail to recognize is that he is one of them.  You blame everyone and everything else BUT him.  He is a problem. Weak arm, indecisiveness, and average athleticism ain't gonna cut it. 5 consecutive subpar performances (and 3 of them were just plain BAD). You want to see him start the rest of the season? That's fine. But we will move on from him next season with a new GM and HC. And you will be forced to change your unbiased Username.

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This is a results-oriented business.  There are no trophies or titles given for "moral victories" or for "winning the draft".  Our record with DC is 37-86.  6-10 is our 2nd best season in 8 years of Caldwell leadership.  These are the FACTS.

Until our Front Office can build a competent team around Gardner Minshew it is unfair to make all these assumptions.

Maybe its the other way around?  Maybe a real starting QB can make the offensive talent on this team better?  THAT is the sign of a franchise QB.  They definitely have one in Cincy... you can see that despite their losses.  But we don't see that here in Duval.

I am sorry... what is the Bengals record again??  WITH A.J. Green, Tyler Boyd, Joe Mixon and Joe Burrow?  Along with a few 1st round picks on the Offensive line.  Their record is 1-5-1.  Green, Boyd and Higgins for that matter are both all 1 receiver talent.  We don't have anything NEAR that quality on the Jaguars.  You are once again expecting a College first year QB to come in and just blow the lid off this team when there are many gaps around the QB position that need to be filled, both in coaching, front office, etc.   We have done Gabbert, Bortles.... they both stunk (except for a single year and that was the superior D which is pretty much disassembled).  Crazy how everyone wants Minshew gone, especially when you see how he is running for his life almost every play.  We got to learn from our mistakes, not keep making them in the draft.

---

You talk of stats not telling the full story, yet choose to evaluate Minshew in a vacuum ignoring the various atrocities that plague our team. 

You bring up Bortle's one year of garbage time stats, yet how many of Minshew's stats come from garbage time do you reckon? Also Bortle's could never throw a spiral, so there's that.

Using the eye test, I see a young QB struggling on a team plagued with a ton of issues. I see flashes of promise, but I see some problems as well. 

Other than his height, most of his problems can be fixed in theory.

Again I'm not suggesting we should put all our eggs in the Minshew basket. But calling him a bust relegated to bench duties the rest of his carrier is just alarmist and lacking of higher critical thinking. There's an area between Minshew is the neatest and Minshew is a bum. Somewhere in there lies the facts. But it's clouded by typical Jag ineptitude.

What you fail to recognize is that he is one of them.  You blame everyone and everything else BUT him.  He is a problem.  Weak arm, indecisiveness, and average athleticism ain't gonna cut it.  5 consecutive subpar performances (and 3 of them were just plain BAD).  You want to see him start the rest of the season?   That's fine.  But we will move on from him next season with a new GM and HC.  And you will be forced to change your unbiased Username.

If we move on, we move on. I hope the next guy is better. But I don't share your optimism that we have a new front office next year. Hope you get your wish though and we land a stud QB in the draft that'll make even Aaron Rodgers blush.

---

lol. What I said was true. He did have more interceptions than TD's at that time. He has been overhyped in the past and IMO did not deserve the OROY. That should have gone to someone like Josh Jacobs. And people did say that Jags weren't winning any games, they did win one, lol. And at the time he didn't look much better than Gardner. 

Granted the Cardinals have currently have a good record. And they have a good shot of making the playoffs. I wouldn't be surprised if they went. Though, they play in the most competitive division in the NFC. And I believe they had like a .500 record at the time of this post. So, they were already doing okay, even with him not playing as well then. 

Wins is the most important stat and his team is definitely better than the Jags in that regard. But individually, Gardner is still hanging with him. They have the same amount of TD's thrown (13) and Gardner still has less interceptions than Kyler. Even in spite of the Jags struggles and their long losing streak. Gardner has five to Kyler's seven. And that's with Kyler playing on a much better team with a better coach. Gardner's passer rating is slightly better, though Kyler's QBR is better.

Nowhere outside Duval County could you find anybody trying to argue that Gardner Minshew and Kyler Murray are approximately the same level of quarterback.  Murray is 5-2 with a QBR of 73.5; Minshew is 1-6 with a QBR of 53.8.  And Murray is twice the athlete with the ball in his hands that Minshew is.  Stop the madness.

Once again with the QBR B.S.  Terry Wilson for the Kentucky Wildcats has a good QBR and he flat stinks.

---

That’s what the west coast offense is: timing passes. I think a lot of people here don’t understand what a west coast offense is.

Minshew is supposed to make reads. The Conley throw was a timing route with favorable coverage(cover 0) pre snap.

We have no idea what his reads are. Head coaches have even said in the past that there is no way to know what reads an opposing offense is making. It’s a guess on our part. He makes his reads and then dumps off if nothing is open. That’s the play. So these downfield open receivers people are talking about are either not in his progressions or were not open at the time he looked for them.



From Wikipedia about a west coast offense:
[font=-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont,]“WCO" plays unfold quicker than in traditional offenses and are usually based on timing routes by the receivers. In this offense the receivers also have reads and change their routes based on the coverages presented to them. The quarterback makes three reads and if no opportunity is available after three reads, the QB will then check off to a back or tight end.“[/font]

Also when there is immediate pressure allowed, timing goes out the window so the QB is forced to hold the ball because the play is now destroyed.  
He also holds the ball in these situations because he has the ability to create. Each week, that ability to create has popped up more and more as he has learned the offense and where guys will be.

This comment kind of got lost in some of the recent talk about Gardner, Kyler and other QB's. But I did have some questions for you PS9, about Gardner and his play in the West Coast offense

Do you see him and the team actually getting better in this offense as the season goes on. I know the Jags have been struggling this year, including the offense as of late. But yesterday's game, they actually looked better than they have in a while. I noticed they started to look better when they sped things up. And definitely better when Gruden actually made good on his promise to utilize James Robinson. Gruden has promised for weeks to not abandon the run, and each week he kept doing it. This week he actually doesn't do it and the offense looks much better. And the Jags end up being competitive. Who knows maybe if that fourth down play is converted, we don't have that fumble, etc... the Jags might have won.

That loss really did remind me more of the Titans loss. And the first time we've seen in a bit the Jags actually put up close to 30 points. Which was around their average after the first two games this season. If the Jags have any sense they will really do their best to keep James going, because he played a big role in the team actually being competitive, not getting blown out badly yesterday. I'm curious to see how the offense performs against the Texans coming out of the bye week.

The only reason this wasn't a 3 score loss was special teams scored on a blocked punt.  Our offense was average yesterday... not good.

---

Nowhere outside Duval County could you find anybody trying to argue that Gardner Minshew and Kyler Murray are approximately the same level of quarterback.  Murray is 5-2 with a QBR of 73.5; Minshew is 1-6 with a QBR of 53.8.  And Murray is twice the athlete with the ball in his hands that Minshew is.  Stop the madness.

Once again with the QBR B.S.  Terry Wilson for the Kentucky Wildcats has a good QBR and he flat stinks.

Another clueless comment referring to college football.  Go look at the current NFL QBR rankings and tell me who is out of place.  The only ones you can make arguments for are QB's that can also make plays with their feet, like Kyler Murray and Lamar Jackson.  The rest of them look spot on for their play this season. QBR is not perfect, but it would be one of the better statistics that combines several important metrics into one number.

---

This is a results-oriented business.  There are no trophies or titles given for "moral victories" or for "winning the draft".  Our record with DC is 37-86.  6-10 is our 2nd best season in 8 years of Caldwell leadership.  These are the FACTS.

I put this in the game day thread but feel it needs repeating.

2018- Bortles named Week 1 starter, Captain, benched for Kessler 

2019- Foles named Week 1 starter, Captain, benched for Minshew 

2020- Minshew named Week 1 starter, Captain...

2021-???

Throw in 3 OC's as well and it's crazy.

---

That’s what the west coast offense is: timing passes. I think a lot of people here don’t understand what a west coast offense is.

Minshew is supposed to make reads. The Conley throw was a timing route with favorable coverage(cover 0) pre snap.

We have no idea what his reads are. Head coaches have even said in the past that there is no way to know what reads an opposing offense is making. It’s a guess on our part. He makes his reads and then dumps off if nothing is open. That’s the play. So these downfield open receivers people are talking about are either not in his progressions or were not open at the time he looked for them.



From Wikipedia about a west coast offense:
[font=-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont,]“WCO" plays unfold quicker than in traditional offenses and are usually based on timing routes by the receivers. In this offense the receivers also have reads and change their routes based on the coverages presented to them. The quarterback makes three reads and if no opportunity is available after three reads, the QB will then check off to a back or tight end.“[/font]

Also when there is immediate pressure allowed, timing goes out the window so the QB is forced to hold the ball because the play is now destroyed.  
He also holds the ball in these situations because he has the ability to create. Each week, that ability to create has popped up more and more as he has learned the offense and where guys will be.

This comment kind of got lost in some of the recent talk about Gardner, Kyler and other QB's. But I did have some questions for you PS9, about Gardner and his play in the West Coast offense

Do you see him and the team actually getting better in this offense as the season goes on. I know the Jags have been struggling this year, including the offense as of late. But yesterday's game, they actually looked better than they have in a while. I noticed they started to look better when they sped things up. And definitely better when Gruden actually made good on his promise to utilize James Robinson. Gruden has promised for weeks to not abandon the run, and each week he kept doing it. This week he actually doesn't do it and the offense looks much better. And the Jags end up being competitive. Who knows maybe if that fourth down play is converted, we don't have that fumble, etc... the Jags might have won.

That loss really did remind me more of the Titans loss. And the first time we've seen in a bit the Jags actually put up close to 30 points. Which was around their average after the first two games this season. If the Jags have any sense they will really do their best to keep James going, because he played a big role in the team actually being competitive, not getting blown out badly yesterday. I'm curious to see how the offense performs against the Texans coming out of the bye week.

Yesterday, the run game was finally utilized to open up the passing game somewhat. They were grinding it away, to the point a few of the runs even got stuffed a little but Gruden stuck with it and got the tough yards. It helped a lot that Robinson made some fantastic runs.
Minshew’s TD to Conley was set up by the heavy run game. It was a Cover 0 look, as I mentioned earlier. 

I feel that I’ve seen Minshew grow in the offense. When the play breaks down he has a better idea of where his guys are when he is running for his life in the backfield. He has become more comfortable creating lately for sure. Starting around the Texans game.

 I also think Cole has really taken a step forward in the offense as well. Sharp route running and knowing where he is supposed to be.

A lot of people will not like to read this but Chark has run lazy routes lately at times. The last Jags throw of the day yesterday was absolutely a catch that a pro bowl level receiver needs to make or attempt. He ran a very lazy route and slowed up. I’m not saying this is an every down occurrence and I’m not saying it wasn’t a bit off target on the throw, but I am saying Chark is not playing hard every down.

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Maybe its the other way around?  Maybe a real starting QB can make the offensive talent on this team better?  THAT is the sign of a franchise QB.  They definitely have one in Cincy... you can see that despite their losses.  But we don't see that here in Duval.

I am sorry... what is the Bengals record again??  WITH A.J. Green, Tyler Boyd, Joe Mixon and Joe Burrow?  Along with a few 1st round picks on the Offensive line.  Their record is 1-5-1.  Green, Boyd and Higgins for that matter are both all 1 receiver talent.  We don't have anything NEAR that quality on the Jaguars.  You are once again expecting a College first year QB to come in and just blow the lid off this team when there are many gaps around the QB position that need to be filled, both in coaching, front office, etc.   We have done Gabbert, Bortles.... they both stunk (except for a single year and that was the superior D which is pretty much disassembled).  Crazy how everyone wants Minshew gone, especially when you see how he is running for his life almost every play.  We got to learn from our mistakes, not keep making them in the draft.

So if we improve everything around Minshew and the coaches- he will start throwing to wide open receivers, stop throwing passes short, and be able to hit receivers in stride??? 

As much as I would love to use our first round picks on something other than QB- we can’t win without a decent QB. We got incredibly lucky in 2017 with injuries on other teams vs our own...

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Maybe its the other way around?  Maybe a real starting QB can make the offensive talent on this team better?  THAT is the sign of a franchise QB.  They definitely have one in Cincy... you can see that despite their losses.  But we don't see that here in Duval.

I am sorry... what is the Bengals record again??  WITH A.J. Green, Tyler Boyd, Joe Mixon and Joe Burrow?  Along with a few 1st round picks on the Offensive line.  Their record is 1-5-1.  Green, Boyd and Higgins for that matter are both all 1 receiver talent.  We don't have anything NEAR that quality on the Jaguars.  You are once again expecting a College first year QB to come in and just blow the lid off this team when there are many gaps around the QB position that need to be filled, both in coaching, front office, etc.   We have done Gabbert, Bortles.... they both stunk (except for a single year and that was the superior D which is pretty much disassembled).  Crazy how everyone wants Minshew gone, especially when you see how he is running for his life almost every play.  We got to learn from our mistakes, not keep making them in the draft.

He's running for his life because he holds the ball too long.  Football 101.  When you see him at your next cousins picnic, tell him to get rid of it faster.

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This is a results-oriented business.  There are no trophies or titles given for "moral victories" or for "winning the draft".  Our record with DC is 37-86.  6-10 is our 2nd best season in 8 years of Caldwell leadership.  These are the FACTS.

This comment kind of got lost in some of the recent talk about Gardner, Kyler and other QB's. But I did have some questions for you PS9, about Gardner and his play in the West Coast offense

Do you see him and the team actually getting better in this offense as the season goes on. I know the Jags have been struggling this year, including the offense as of late. But yesterday's game, they actually looked better than they have in a while. I noticed they started to look better when they sped things up. And definitely better when Gruden actually made good on his promise to utilize James Robinson. Gruden has promised for weeks to not abandon the run, and each week he kept doing it. This week he actually doesn't do it and the offense looks much better. And the Jags end up being competitive. Who knows maybe if that fourth down play is converted, we don't have that fumble, etc... the Jags might have won.

That loss really did remind me more of the Titans loss. And the first time we've seen in a bit the Jags actually put up close to 30 points. Which was around their average after the first two games this season. If the Jags have any sense they will really do their best to keep James going, because he played a big role in the team actually being competitive, not getting blown out badly yesterday. I'm curious to see how the offense performs against the Texans coming out of the bye week.

Yesterday, the run game was finally utilized to open up the passing game somewhat. They were grinding it away, to the point a few of the runs even got stuffed a little but Gruden stuck with it and got the tough yards. It helped a lot that Robinson made some fantastic runs.
Minshew’s TD to Conley was set up by the heavy run game. It was a Cover 0 look, as I mentioned earlier. 

I feel that I’ve seen Minshew grow in the offense. When the play breaks down he has a better idea of where his guys are when he is running for his life in the backfield. He has become more comfortable creating lately for sure. Starting around the Texans game.

 I also think Cole has really taken a step forward in the offense as well. Sharp route running and knowing where he is supposed to be.

A lot of people will not like to read this but Chark has run lazy routes lately at times. The last Jags throw of the day yesterday was absolutely a catch that a pro bowl level receiver needs to make or attempt. He ran a very lazy route and slowed up. I’m not saying this is an every down occurrence and I’m not saying it wasn’t a bit off target on the throw, but I am saying Chark is not playing hard every down.

Thanks for your insight.

I've found Gruden's comments (the past few weeks when the Jags have been losing/offense struggling) a lot to be interesting. He's been talking like he thinks that the Jags will get better. In spite of the team struggling and all of the losing they've been doing. 

He's also been stating at least prior to yesterday's game that he's felt bad about abandoning the run. Which is one of the reasons why I've been very critical of him the past few weeks. He was saying that for weeks and not doing anything to rectify that problem until yesterday's game. I've felt like he hasn't been doing his best to help the offense run as best as they can. The defense definitely has a lot of issues but the offense has been struggling too as of late, and I do largely hold Gruden accountable for that. 

I feel like if he hadn't given up on the run these past few weeks, the Jags would have a better record. I believe if this offense had utilized James Robinson/the run more the Jags would have at least 3 wins by now. I think they could have at least beat the Texans/Lions. Granted (especially with the defense playing as poorly as it it has), the offense could only carry the team so much. But I do believe they have enough talent/could have gotten enough production to be better than the 1-6 record the Jags currently have. When they do utilize the run more effectively they look much more competitive. When they don't we have these really ugly looking games, especially if the defense is also playing pretty rough.

James really has been a great addition to this team. I think he's been the best player on offense so far this year. I've also liked the effort I've seen from Shenault too and would like to see him used more. And Cole has been doing a nice job as well. Unfortunately, DJ does seem very frustrated. I think one reason he's upset is because he's not getting as many targets/scoring as much as did last year. Last year he was Gardner's favorite target and at one point I think he had the most TD's in the AFC. This year the ball has been spread around more and there have been some misses on both his and Gardner's ends. And it also hurts that the teams has this big losing streak going on.

I am interested in seeing how the offense plays going forward/after the bye. If they play more like they did yesterday, and in the first two games, I think that the Jags can get some more wins. Maybe even beat the Texans the second time around.

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Yesterday, the run game was finally utilized to open up the passing game somewhat. They were grinding it away, to the point a few of the runs even got stuffed a little but Gruden stuck with it and got the tough yards. It helped a lot that Robinson made some fantastic runs.
Minshew’s TD to Conley was set up by the heavy run game. It was a Cover 0 look, as I mentioned earlier. 

I feel that I’ve seen Minshew grow in the offense. When the play breaks down he has a better idea of where his guys are when he is running for his life in the backfield. He has become more comfortable creating lately for sure. Starting around the Texans game.

 I also think Cole has really taken a step forward in the offense as well. Sharp route running and knowing where he is supposed to be.

A lot of people will not like to read this but Chark has run lazy routes lately at times. The last Jags throw of the day yesterday was absolutely a catch that a pro bowl level receiver needs to make or attempt. He ran a very lazy route and slowed up. I’m not saying this is an every down occurrence and I’m not saying it wasn’t a bit off target on the throw, but I am saying Chark is not playing hard every down.

Thanks for you insight.

I've found Gruden's comments (the past few weeks when the Jags have been losing/offense struggling) a lot to be interesting. He's been talking like he thinks that the Jags will get better. In spite of the team struggling and all of the losing they've been doing. 

He's also been stating at least prior to yesterday's game that he's felt bad about abandoning the run. Which is one of the reasons why I've been very critical of him the past few weeks. I've felt like he hasn't been doing his best to help the offense run as best as they can. The defense definitely has a lot of issues but the offense has been struggling too as of late, and I do largely hold Gruden accountable for that. 

I feel like if he hadn't given up on the run these past few weeks, the Jags would have a better record. I believe if this offense had utilized James Robinson/the run more the Jags would have at least 3 wins by now. I think they could have at least beat the Texans/Lions. Granted (especially with the defense playing as poorly as it it has), the offense could only carry the team so much. But I do believe they have enough talent/could have gotten enough production to be better than the 1-6 record the Jags currently have. When they do utilize the run more effectively they look much more competitive. When they don't we have these really ugly looking games, especially if the defense is also playing pretty rough.

James really has been a great addition to this team. I think he's been the best player on offense so far this year. I've also liked the effort I've seen from Shenault too and would like to see him used more. And Cole has been doing a nice job as well. Unfortunately, DJ does seem very frustrated. I think one reason he's upset is because he's not getting as many targets/scoring as much as did last year. Last year he was Gardner's favorite target and at one point I think he had the most TD's in the AFC. This year the ball has been spread around more and there have been some misses on both his and Gardner's ends. And it also hurts that the teams has this big losing streak going on.

I am interested in seeing how the offense plays going forward/after the bye. If they play more like they did yesterday, and in the first two games, I think that the Jags can get some more wins. Maybe even beat the Texans the second time around.

My opinion of what has been happening, and keep in mind I could just be an internet moron... What I have seen is teams dialing in on Minshew’s slow read. I’ve seen the last few games teams focusing on shutting down the run and forcing us to pass while in a deficit early. When we Telegraph our pass plays by say, having Chris Thompson in the game, they would send a blitz package. Minshew doesn’t handle blitz’s well and once he starts feeling the pressure he sees ghosts the rest of the game. Unfortunately once Minshew is exposed we are so far behind to then turn back to the running game. 

That’s my take- and again, I may just be a moron. Lol

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Thanks for you insight.

I've found Gruden's comments (the past few weeks when the Jags have been losing/offense struggling) a lot to be interesting. He's been talking like he thinks that the Jags will get better. In spite of the team struggling and all of the losing they've been doing. 

He's also been stating at least prior to yesterday's game that he's felt bad about abandoning the run. Which is one of the reasons why I've been very critical of him the past few weeks. I've felt like he hasn't been doing his best to help the offense run as best as they can. The defense definitely has a lot of issues but the offense has been struggling too as of late, and I do largely hold Gruden accountable for that. 

I feel like if he hadn't given up on the run these past few weeks, the Jags would have a better record. I believe if this offense had utilized James Robinson/the run more the Jags would have at least 3 wins by now. I think they could have at least beat the Texans/Lions. Granted (especially with the defense playing as poorly as it it has), the offense could only carry the team so much. But I do believe they have enough talent/could have gotten enough production to be better than the 1-6 record the Jags currently have. When they do utilize the run more effectively they look much more competitive. When they don't we have these really ugly looking games, especially if the defense is also playing pretty rough.

James really has been a great addition to this team. I think he's been the best player on offense so far this year. I've also liked the effort I've seen from Shenault too and would like to see him used more. And Cole has been doing a nice job as well. Unfortunately, DJ does seem very frustrated. I think one reason he's upset is because he's not getting as many targets/scoring as much as did last year. Last year he was Gardner's favorite target and at one point I think he had the most TD's in the AFC. This year the ball has been spread around more and there have been some misses on both his and Gardner's ends. And it also hurts that the teams has this big losing streak going on.

I am interested in seeing how the offense plays going forward/after the bye. If they play more like they did yesterday, and in the first two games, I think that the Jags can get some more wins. Maybe even beat the Texans the second time around.

Our offense wasn't good yesterday, and neither was Minshew.  We only had 294 yards of total offense...  they had 484 yards. We were fortunate special teams came through with one big play to give us a huge touchdown or we would have lost by 3 scores.  This team won't win another game without being +3 in the turnover ratio somehow.

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This is a results-oriented business.  There are no trophies or titles given for "moral victories" or for "winning the draft".  Our record with DC is 37-86.  6-10 is our 2nd best season in 8 years of Caldwell leadership.  These are the FACTS.

Yesterday, the run game was finally utilized to open up the passing game somewhat. They were grinding it away, to the point a few of the runs even got stuffed a little but Gruden stuck with it and got the tough yards. It helped a lot that Robinson made some fantastic runs.
Minshew’s TD to Conley was set up by the heavy run game. It was a Cover 0 look, as I mentioned earlier. 

I feel that I’ve seen Minshew grow in the offense. When the play breaks down he has a better idea of where his guys are when he is running for his life in the backfield. He has become more comfortable creating lately for sure. Starting around the Texans game.

 I also think Cole has really taken a step forward in the offense as well. Sharp route running and knowing where he is supposed to be.

A lot of people will not like to read this but Chark has run lazy routes lately at times. The last Jags throw of the day yesterday was absolutely a catch that a pro bowl level receiver needs to make or attempt. He ran a very lazy route and slowed up. I’m not saying this is an every down occurrence and I’m not saying it wasn’t a bit off target on the throw, but I am saying Chark is not playing hard every down.

Thanks for your insight.

I've found Gruden's comments (the past few weeks when the Jags have been losing/offense struggling) a lot to be interesting. He's been talking like he thinks that the Jags will get better. In spite of the team struggling and all of the losing they've been doing. 

He's also been stating at least prior to yesterday's game that he's felt bad about abandoning the run. Which is one of the reasons why I've been very critical of him the past few weeks. He was saying that for weeks and not doing anything to rectify that problem until yesterday's game. I've felt like he hasn't been doing his best to help the offense run as best as they can. The defense definitely has a lot of issues but the offense has been struggling too as of late, and I do largely hold Gruden accountable for that. 

I feel like if he hadn't given up on the run these past few weeks, the Jags would have a better record. I believe if this offense had utilized James Robinson/the run more the Jags would have at least 3 wins by now. I think they could have at least beat the Texans/Lions. Granted (especially with the defense playing as poorly as it it has), the offense could only carry the team so much. But I do believe they have enough talent/could have gotten enough production to be better than the 1-6 record the Jags currently have. When they do utilize the run more effectively they look much more competitive. When they don't we have these really ugly looking games, especially if the defense is also playing pretty rough.

James really has been a great addition to this team. I think he's been the best player on offense so far this year. I've also liked the effort I've seen from Shenault too and would like to see him used more. And Cole has been doing a nice job as well. Unfortunately, DJ does seem very frustrated. I think one reason he's upset is because he's not getting as many targets/scoring as much as did last year. Last year he was Gardner's favorite target and at one point I think he had the most TD's in the AFC. This year the ball has been spread around more and there have been some misses on both his and Gardner's ends. And it also hurts that the teams has this big losing streak going on.

I am interested in seeing how the offense plays going forward/after the bye. If they play more like they did yesterday, and in the first two games, I think that the Jags can get some more wins. Maybe even beat the Texans the second time around.

Winning more games is useless.

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