Not calling you an idiot TJ, but you just want this sooooooo  bad, its clouding your judgement and reason.

I don’t give a [BLEEP]. He’s gone in two weeks regardless. My problem is that a sitting President who was defeated in the general election has spent months telling the public that elections can’t be trusted. He’s ranting and raving about Democrats committing election fraud while he’s inviting state legislators to the White House, pressuring the courts and now telling a state official in very direct terms that he wants that official to “find” one vote more than is needed to overturn the results. And if the official doesn’t, people will be mad, they’ll vote him out of office, and he’ll be putting himself in legal trouble.

You wanted election fraud? You got it. Now grow a pair and handle it.

You literally just wrote a 1086 character post about a guy who is gone in 2 weeks you dont give a [BLEEP] about.

That's the thing. He isn't going away, and you DO give a [BLEEP] about him.

---

What parts exactly were edited?

Edited to change the narrative of the entire phone call. You tried to pull this same crap last year.

Honestly, to believe Trump would do anything illegal with that many people on the call is silly.

Who tried to pull this crap? Lol I didn’t edit the phone call.

---

I don’t give a [BLEEP]. He’s gone in two weeks regardless. My problem is that a sitting President who was defeated in the general election has spent months telling the public that elections can’t be trusted. He’s ranting and raving about Democrats committing election fraud while he’s inviting state legislators to the White House, pressuring the courts and now telling a state official in very direct terms that he wants that official to “find” one vote more than is needed to overturn the results. And if the official doesn’t, people will be mad, they’ll vote him out of office, and he’ll be putting himself in legal trouble.

You wanted election fraud? You got it. Now grow a pair and handle it.

Elections can't be trusted anymore. We are a banana republic now. Trump just filed 2 lawsuits per Twitter. I haven't verified yet.

Evidence. Show me evidence and I'm on board. Not the evidence that's been put out there before. That's all postal workers saying someone told them someone else might have done something somewhere sometime. It's poll watchers complaining about not being allowed into the room to watch the counting...while they were in the room watching the counting. Or the ones saying they were harassed because they were flagging literally every single absentee ballot they came across as suspect. And who could forget the woman who shared tons of unverified, unproveable (but proven incorrect) info about the massive Dominion conspiracy...in between naps during her hearing.

So where's the real evidence? Is it still hiding behind, "We can't share it because we'd put people in danger?" Oh, boo [BLEEP] hoo. If the information is valuable enough to preserving American democracy as we know it, put their [BLEEP] in the Witness Protection Program and send them to live on the ISS until their hearings. If not a single person with real evidence demands to stand up and present it, then I just have to continue assuming that they're just more figments of Kayleigh MacTwitninny's imagination. But if the evidence and witnesses are out there with bombshell information we haven't seen yet, present them. I'm listening.


Until then, [BLEEP] right off with this "elections can't be trusted" nonsense. I believe it was Rand Paul who spoke to the real motivations of Trump, his enablers, and people who hold views like yours:

"I'm very, very concerned that if you solicit votes from typically non-voters, that you will affect and change the outcome." -December 17th 2020, Twitter

And what's wrong with changing the outcome? That's what voting is supposed to do, right? Or are Republicans hung up on something different. Some other reality of American politics and how the voter turnout game works? Let's ask Trumpty Dumpty:

"They had levels of voting that, if you agreed to it you'd never have a Republican elected in this country again." -March 30th 2020, Fox News

What Trump's doing is nothing new. He's just pushing it to its breaking point. It's already failed, but failure is not enough. He must be punished in the most extreme way allowed by law for what he's doing right now. Will he be? No. Somehow or another, he'll weasel his way out of it, either by pardoning himself or arranging for one, or by just fleeing the country entirely to paint himself as a Chicken McMartyr for his drones supporters. The only organized, widespread electoral fraud in this election is what we've seen from the Trump campaign. Massive disinformation dumps that even Fox News sees through, paired with Trump using his position as President to try and pressure various governmental bodies into changing the outcome of legal, fair, lawful elections by intimidation and threats.

Remember an age when men were men and your userpic was a dumpster fire? I miss those days. You're better than this, dawg.
very concerned that if you solicit votes from typically non-voters, that you will affect and change the outcome.”
“I’ very, very concerned that if you solicit votes from typically non-voters, that you will affect and change the outcome.”

---

I'm about to listen to the unedited version of this recording. I haven't read one article about it, and I stopped reading on this post on page 153. Here's what I expect to see... firstly, I bet he rants and raves about the election being stolen. Because he thinks it's stolen, he wants the dudes in charge to find the votes taken from him, either by discovering the fake ones or finding the ones he believes were thrown out. I am guess people who hate Trump focus in on the part where he wants to find votes and leave out the context of him feeling voter fraud in the first place. I bet Trumpers only fixate on the fraud without considering the negative perception that stems from Trump having zero regard for appearance. I know what's being ignored: how'd the tape get released? I don't like Raffensburger, and I don't trust him. There's my bias going into this. I'll let you know my impressions in a few.

---

I'm about to listen to the unedited version of this recording. I haven't read one article about it, and I stopped reading on this post on page 153. Here's what I expect to see... firstly, I bet he rants and raves about the election being stolen. Because he thinks it's stolen, he wants the dudes in charge to find the votes taken from him, either by discovering the fake ones or finding the ones he believes were thrown out. I am guess people who hate Trump focus in on the part where he wants to find votes and leave out the context of him feeling voter fraud in the first place. I bet Trumpers only fixate on the fraud without considering the negative perception that stems from Trump having zero regard for appearance. I know what's being ignored: how'd the tape get released? I don't like Raffensburger, and I don't trust him. There's my bias going into this. I'll let you know my impressions in a few.

Yep...it’s pretty much all of this.

---

What in the Wide Wide World of Sports is agoin' on here???

Well, I had to read it because the video isn't working. It's easier for me to listen to Trump's ramblings than to read them. If he would let people talk, we'd have more information. Like I said, I don't trust Raffensburger, and I believe he's not being honest in that phone call. I don't like how he doesn't have an answer for a lot of the questions. He responds with "it was investigated," but never gives details, even when pressed. It's clear that he's not cooperating with the Trump administration with regard to voter information. Germany answers a couple questions, but only about out-of-state voters. All that aside, I get frustrated with Trump for not pressing an answer. He's so impatient. He jumps around too much instead of holding anyone's feet to the fire. 

As to Trump pressuring him. I think that's true. However, he's pressuring him to examine and give an account for the numbers being put forth by the Trump administration, and Raffensburger is ducking it. I am not privy to the exchanges that have happened between the parties in the past, but, in the phone call at least, They don't give a single detailed answer. From the transcript I'm reading, this is not on Trump, but it might appear different if I was listening to them speak. I thought this was interesting:

[font=georgia,]Mitchell: Mr. Secretary, Mr. President, one of the things that we have been, Alex can talk about this, we talked about it, and I don’t know whether the information has been conveyed to your office, but I think what the president is saying, and what we’ve been trying to do is to say, look, the court is not acting on our petition. They haven’t even assigned a judge. But the people of Georgia and the people of America have a right to know the answers. And you have data and records that we don’t have access to.[/font]

[font=georgia,]And you can keep telling us and making public statement that you investigated this and nothing to see here. But we don’t know about that. All we know is what you tell us. What I don’t understand is why wouldn’t it be in everyone’s best interest to try to get to the bottom, compare the numbers, you know, if you say, because . . . to try to be able to get to the truth because we don’t have any way of confirming what you’re telling us. You tell us that you had an investigation at the State Farm Arena. I don’t have any report. I’ve never seen a report of investigation. I don’t know that is. I’ve been pretty involved in this, and I don’t know. And that’s just one of 25 categories. And it doesn’t even. And as I, as the president said, we haven’t even gotten into the Dominion issue. That’s not part of our case. It’s not part of, we just didn’t feel as though we had any to be able to develop —
[/font]
[font=georgia,]Trump: No, we do have a way, but I don’t want to get into it. We found a way . . . excuse me, but we don’t need it because we’re only down 11,000 votes, so we don’t even need it. I personally think they’re corrupt as hell. But we don’t need that. All we have to do, Cleta, is find 11,000-plus votes. So we don’t need that. I’m not looking to shake up the whole world. We won Georgia easily. We won it by hundreds of thousands of votes. But if you go by basic, simple numbers, we won it easily, easily. So we’re not giving Dominion a pass on the record. We don’t need Dominion because we have so many other votes that we don’t need to prove it any more than we already have.
[/font]
[font=georgia,]Hilbert: Mr. President and Cleta, this is Kurt Hilbert, if I might interject for a moment. Ryan, I would like to suggest that just four categories that have already been mentioned by the president that have actually hard numbers of 24,149 votes that were counted illegally. That in and of itself is sufficient to change the results or place the outcome in doubt. We would like to sit down with your office, and we can do it through purposes of compromise and just like this phone call, just to deal with that limited category of votes. And if you are able to establish that our numbers are not accurate, then fine. However, we believe that they are accurate. We’ve had now three to four separate experts looking at these numbers.
[/font]
[font=georgia,]Trump: Certified accountants looked at them.
[/font]
[font=georgia,]Hilbert: Correct. And this is just based on USPS data and your own secretary of state data. So that’s what we would entreat and ask you to do, to sit down with us in a compromise and settlements proceeding and actually go through the registered voter IDs and the registrations. And if you can convince us that 24,149 is inaccurate, then fine. But we tend to believe that is, you know, obviously more than 11,779. That’s sufficient to change the results entirely in and of itself. So what would you say to that, Mr. Germany?
[/font]
[font=georgia,]Germany: I’m happy to get with our lawyers, and we’ll set that up. That number is not accurate. And I think we can show you, for all the ones we’ve looked at, why it’s not. And so if that would be helpful, I’m happy to get with our lawyers and set that up with you guys.
[/font]
[font=georgia,]Trump: Well, let me ask you, Kurt, you think that is an accurate number. That was based on the information given to you by the secretary of state’s department, right?
[/font]
[font=georgia,]Hilbert: That is correct. That information is the minimum, most conservative data based upon the USPS data and the secretary of state’s office data that has been made publicly available. We do not have the internal numbers from the secretary of state. Yet we have asked for it six times. I sent a letter over to . . . several times requesting this information, and it’s been rebuffed every single time. So it stands to reason that if the information is not forthcoming, there’s something to hide. That’s the problem that we have.
[/font]
[font=georgia,]Germany: Well, that’s not the case, sir. There are things that you guys are entitled to get. And there’s things that under law, we are not allowed to give out.

[font=Franklin, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=georgia,]Meadows: Mr. President, this is Mark. It sounds like we’ve got two different sides agreeing that we can look at those areas, and I assume that we can do that within the next 24 to 48 hours, to go ahead and get that reconciled so that we can look at the two claims and making sure that we get the access to the secretary of state’s data to either validate or invalidate the claims that have been made. Is that correct?
[/font]
[/font][/font]
[font=georgia,]Germany: No, that’s not what I said. I’m happy to have our lawyers sit down with Kurt and the lawyers on that side and explain to him, hey, here’s, based on what we’ve looked at so far, here’s how we know this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong.
[/font]

[font=georgia,]Meadows: So what you’re saying, Ryan, let me let me make sure . . . so what you’re saying is you really don’t want to give access to the data. You just want to make another case on why the lawsuit is wrong?
[/font]

[font=georgia,]Germany: I don’t think we can give access to data that’s protected by law. But we can sit down with them and say —
[/font]

[font=georgia,]Trump: But you’re allowed to have a phony election? You’re allowed to have a phony election, right?
[/font]

[font=georgia,]Germany: No, sir.
[/font]

[font=georgia,]Trump: When are you going to do signature counts, when are you going to do signature verification on Fulton County, which you said you were going to do, and now all of a sudden, you’re not doing it. When are you doing that?
[/font]

[font=georgia,]Germany: We are going to do that. We’ve announced —
[/font]

[font=georgia,]Hilbert: To get to this issue of the personal information and privacy issue, is it possible that the secretary of state could deputize the lawyers for the president so that we could access that information and private information without you having any kind of violation?
[/font]

[font=georgia,]Trump: Well, I don’t want to know who it is. You guys can do it very confidentially. You can sign a confidentiality agreement. That’s okay. I don’t need to know names. But on this stuff that we’re talking about, we got all that information from the secretary of state.
[/font]

[font=georgia,]Meadows: Yeah. So let me let me recommend, Ryan, if you and Kurt will get together, you know, when we get off of this phone call, if you could get together and work out a plan to address some of what we’ve got with your attorneys where we can we can actually look at the data. For example, Mr. Secretary, I can you say they were only two dead people who would vote. I can promise you there are more than that. And that may be what your investigation shows, but I can promise you there are more than that. But at the same time, I think it’s important that we go ahead and move expeditiously to try to do this and resolve it as quickly as we possibly can. And if that’s the good next step. Hopefully we can, we can finish this phone call and go ahead and agree that the two of you will get together immediately.[/font]. 

Bottom line, Raffensburger is not cooperating with the Trump team of giving them any detailed analysis. According to Trump, he is saying they have discovered 24k votes that are illegal under GA law. Raffensburger and Germany are saying his numbers are wrong but they won't show him why. None of this has been heard by the courts, so there is no way of knowing whose numbers are correct. Trump isn't telling Raffensburger to manufacture 12k votes. He's asking him to verify their numbers show them how they are incorrect. Seems reasonable to me. 

Pretty much nailed my guess.

---

The fact of the matter is 1-term Trump was only one of the few presidents to NOT be re-elected AND he lost by more votes than any other 1-term president since Hoover lost to FDR in 1933. That has to be pretty embarrassing to him so he only has one strategy and that's denial.

Oh well, it will all be over in 3 weeks so be it.

---

The fact of the matter is 1-term Trump was only one of the few presidents to NOT be re-elected AND he lost by more votes than any other 1-term president since Hoover lost to FDR in 1933.  That has to be pretty embarrassing to him so he only has one strategy and that's denial.

Oh well, it will all be over in 3 weeks so be it.

Didn't he also receive more votes than any GOP candidate in history?

---

So objecting to an election certification is a threat to democracy now? Funny how that works, huh?

https://youtu.be/6D00MmTuja8

---

What in the Wide Wide World of Sports is agoin' on here???

Well, I had to read it because the video isn't working. It's easier for me to listen to Trump's ramblings than to read them. If he would let people talk, we'd have more information. Like I said, I don't trust Raffensburger, and I believe he's not being honest in that phone call. I don't like how he doesn't have an answer for a lot of the questions. He responds with "it was investigated," but never gives details, even when pressed. It's clear that he's not cooperating with the Trump administration with regard to voter information. Germany answers a couple questions, but only about out-of-state voters. All that aside, I get frustrated with Trump for not pressing an answer. He's so impatient. He jumps around too much instead of holding anyone's feet to the fire. 

As to Trump pressuring him. I think that's true. However, he's pressuring him to examine and give an account for the numbers being put forth by the Trump administration, and Raffensburger is ducking it. I am not privy to the exchanges that have happened between the parties in the past, but, in the phone call at least, They don't give a single detailed answer. From the transcript I'm reading, this is not on Trump, but it might appear different if I was listening to them speak. I thought this was interesting:

[font=georgia,]Mitchell: Mr. Secretary, Mr. President, one of the things that we have been, Alex can talk about this, we talked about it, and I don’t know whether the information has been conveyed to your office, but I think what the president is saying, and what we’ve been trying to do is to say, look, the court is not acting on our petition. They haven’t even assigned a judge. But the people of Georgia and the people of America have a right to know the answers. And you have data and records that we don’t have access to.[/font]

[font=georgia,]And you can keep telling us and making public statement that you investigated this and nothing to see here. But we don’t know about that. All we know is what you tell us. What I don’t understand is why wouldn’t it be in everyone’s best interest to try to get to the bottom, compare the numbers, you know, if you say, because . . . to try to be able to get to the truth because we don’t have any way of confirming what you’re telling us. You tell us that you had an investigation at the State Farm Arena. I don’t have any report. I’ve never seen a report of investigation. I don’t know that is. I’ve been pretty involved in this, and I don’t know. And that’s just one of 25 categories. And it doesn’t even. And as I, as the president said, we haven’t even gotten into the Dominion issue. That’s not part of our case. It’s not part of, we just didn’t feel as though we had any to be able to develop —
[/font]
[font=georgia,]Trump: No, we do have a way, but I don’t want to get into it. We found a way . . . excuse me, but we don’t need it because we’re only down 11,000 votes, so we don’t even need it. I personally think they’re corrupt as hell. But we don’t need that. All we have to do, Cleta, is find 11,000-plus votes. So we don’t need that. I’m not looking to shake up the whole world. We won Georgia easily. We won it by hundreds of thousands of votes. But if you go by basic, simple numbers, we won it easily, easily. So we’re not giving Dominion a pass on the record. We don’t need Dominion because we have so many other votes that we don’t need to prove it any more than we already have.
[/font]
[font=georgia,]Hilbert: Mr. President and Cleta, this is Kurt Hilbert, if I might interject for a moment. Ryan, I would like to suggest that just four categories that have already been mentioned by the president that have actually hard numbers of 24,149 votes that were counted illegally. That in and of itself is sufficient to change the results or place the outcome in doubt. We would like to sit down with your office, and we can do it through purposes of compromise and just like this phone call, just to deal with that limited category of votes. And if you are able to establish that our numbers are not accurate, then fine. However, we believe that they are accurate. We’ve had now three to four separate experts looking at these numbers.
[/font]
[font=georgia,]Trump: Certified accountants looked at them.
[/font]
[font=georgia,]Hilbert: Correct. And this is just based on USPS data and your own secretary of state data. So that’s what we would entreat and ask you to do, to sit down with us in a compromise and settlements proceeding and actually go through the registered voter IDs and the registrations. And if you can convince us that 24,149 is inaccurate, then fine. But we tend to believe that is, you know, obviously more than 11,779. That’s sufficient to change the results entirely in and of itself. So what would you say to that, Mr. Germany?
[/font]
[font=georgia,]Germany: I’m happy to get with our lawyers, and we’ll set that up. That number is not accurate. And I think we can show you, for all the ones we’ve looked at, why it’s not. And so if that would be helpful, I’m happy to get with our lawyers and set that up with you guys.
[/font]
[font=georgia,]Trump: Well, let me ask you, Kurt, you think that is an accurate number. That was based on the information given to you by the secretary of state’s department, right?
[/font]
[font=georgia,]Hilbert: That is correct. That information is the minimum, most conservative data based upon the USPS data and the secretary of state’s office data that has been made publicly available. We do not have the internal numbers from the secretary of state. Yet we have asked for it six times. I sent a letter over to . . . several times requesting this information, and it’s been rebuffed every single time. So it stands to reason that if the information is not forthcoming, there’s something to hide. That’s the problem that we have.
[/font]
[font=georgia,]Germany: Well, that’s not the case, sir. There are things that you guys are entitled to get. And there’s things that under law, we are not allowed to give out.

[font=Franklin, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=georgia,]Meadows: Mr. President, this is Mark. It sounds like we’ve got two different sides agreeing that we can look at those areas, and I assume that we can do that within the next 24 to 48 hours, to go ahead and get that reconciled so that we can look at the two claims and making sure that we get the access to the secretary of state’s data to either validate or invalidate the claims that have been made. Is that correct?
[/font]
[/font][/font]
[font=georgia,]Germany: No, that’s not what I said. I’m happy to have our lawyers sit down with Kurt and the lawyers on that side and explain to him, hey, here’s, based on what we’ve looked at so far, here’s how we know this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong.
[/font]

[font=georgia,]Meadows: So what you’re saying, Ryan, let me let me make sure . . . so what you’re saying is you really don’t want to give access to the data. You just want to make another case on why the lawsuit is wrong?
[/font]

[font=georgia,]Germany: I don’t think we can give access to data that’s protected by law. But we can sit down with them and say —
[/font]

[font=georgia,]Trump: But you’re allowed to have a phony election? You’re allowed to have a phony election, right?
[/font]

[font=georgia,]Germany: No, sir.
[/font]

[font=georgia,]Trump: When are you going to do signature counts, when are you going to do signature verification on Fulton County, which you said you were going to do, and now all of a sudden, you’re not doing it. When are you doing that?
[/font]

[font=georgia,]Germany: We are going to do that. We’ve announced —
[/font]

[font=georgia,]Hilbert: To get to this issue of the personal information and privacy issue, is it possible that the secretary of state could deputize the lawyers for the president so that we could access that information and private information without you having any kind of violation?
[/font]

[font=georgia,]Trump: Well, I don’t want to know who it is. You guys can do it very confidentially. You can sign a confidentiality agreement. That’s okay. I don’t need to know names. But on this stuff that we’re talking about, we got all that information from the secretary of state.
[/font]

[font=georgia,]Meadows: Yeah. So let me let me recommend, Ryan, if you and Kurt will get together, you know, when we get off of this phone call, if you could get together and work out a plan to address some of what we’ve got with your attorneys where we can we can actually look at the data. For example, Mr. Secretary, I can you say they were only two dead people who would vote. I can promise you there are more than that. And that may be what your investigation shows, but I can promise you there are more than that. But at the same time, I think it’s important that we go ahead and move expeditiously to try to do this and resolve it as quickly as we possibly can. And if that’s the good next step. Hopefully we can, we can finish this phone call and go ahead and agree that the two of you will get together immediately.[/font]. 

Bottom line, Raffensburger is not cooperating with the Trump team of giving them any detailed analysis. According to Trump, he is saying they have discovered 24k votes that are illegal under GA law. Raffensburger and Germany are saying his numbers are wrong but they won't show him why. None of this has been heard by the courts, so there is no way of knowing whose numbers are correct. Trump isn't telling Raffensburger to manufacture 12k votes. He's asking him to verify their numbers show them how they are incorrect. Seems reasonable to me. 

Pretty much nailed my guess.

Isn't it obvious by now that Trump has lost his mind and will not believe anything or anyone that doesn't support his claim that he was cheated out of re-election?  He's surrounded himself with people who will not tell him the truth.  

"I got some new evidence.  Prove me wrong."
Next day- "I have another wild charge to make.  Prove that I am wrong."  

See how that goes?  Why waste the time?  It's over.  Trump needs to move out of the White House, because he lost the election.

---

Well, I had to read it because the video isn't working. It's easier for me to listen to Trump's ramblings than to read them. If he would let people talk, we'd have more information. Like I said, I don't trust Raffensburger, and I believe he's not being honest in that phone call. I don't like how he doesn't have an answer for a lot of the questions. He responds with "it was investigated," but never gives details, even when pressed. It's clear that he's not cooperating with the Trump administration with regard to voter information. Germany answers a couple questions, but only about out-of-state voters. All that aside, I get frustrated with Trump for not pressing an answer. He's so impatient. He jumps around too much instead of holding anyone's feet to the fire. 

As to Trump pressuring him. I think that's true. However, he's pressuring him to examine and give an account for the numbers being put forth by the Trump administration, and Raffensburger is ducking it. I am not privy to the exchanges that have happened between the parties in the past, but, in the phone call at least, They don't give a single detailed answer. From the transcript I'm reading, this is not on Trump, but it might appear different if I was listening to them speak. I thought this was interesting:


Bottom line, Raffensburger is not cooperating with the Trump team of giving them any detailed analysis. According to Trump, he is saying they have discovered 24k votes that are illegal under GA law. Raffensburger and Germany are saying his numbers are wrong but they won't show him why. None of this has been heard by the courts, so there is no way of knowing whose numbers are correct. Trump isn't telling Raffensburger to manufacture 12k votes. He's asking him to verify their numbers show them how they are incorrect. Seems reasonable to me. 

Pretty much nailed my guess.

Isn't it obvious by now that Trump has lost his mind and will not believe anything or anyone that doesn't support his claim that he was cheated out of re-election?  He's surrounded himself with people who will not tell him the truth.  

"I got some new evidence.  Prove me wrong."
Next day- "I have another wild charge to make.  Prove that I am wrong."  

See how that goes?  Why waste the time?  It's over.  Trump needs to move out of the White House, because he lost the election.

Anyone would lose their mind trying to fight the deep state swamp. 

Siding with them and pretending everything is hunky dory is even more disturbing.

---

Isn't it obvious by now that Trump has lost his mind and will not believe anything or anyone that doesn't support his claim that he was cheated out of re-election?  He's surrounded himself with people who will not tell him the truth.  

"I got some new evidence.  Prove me wrong."
Next day- "I have another wild charge to make.  Prove that I am wrong."  

See how that goes?  Why waste the time?  It's over.  Trump needs to move out of the White House, because he lost the election.

Anyone would lose their mind trying to fight the deep state swamp. 

Siding with them and pretending everything is hunky dory is even more disturbing.

"Anyone would lose their mind..."

Then you agree he has lost his mind.

---

So objecting to an election certification is a threat to democracy now? Funny how that works, huh?

https://youtu.be/6D00MmTuja8

Good video.
They didn't include all of the objections.  Corrine Brown also objected that day.
Not that it would have changed the outcome; Republicans had a majority in both chambers and any dispute between the two chambers about certification would have gone to the governor of FL, also Republican.
The objections we see on the 6th this year also aren't going to change the outcome.  Democrats control the House and enough Republicans have signalled that they have no stomach for this that the two houses will agree that Biden won each of the disputed states.

What's different is the sincerity.

In 2000, all Democrats really believed that Gore would have won if hand recounts had been completed in a timely fashion.  They ran out of time, and the Supreme Court ruled that they must honor the deadline.  No one accused the Democrats of posturing or insincerity - they were accused of whining and of being sore losers.  The deadline was just as much a part of the rules as the casting of ballots and the counting of ballots, even if miscounted votes could have been found if they were given more time.

In 2020, Ben Sasse says that all Republican lawmakers confess privately that they know Biden won, but some of them are posturing to improve their chances in the next election.  I see no reason to doubt Sasse's word on this.  Do you?  The dispute this time is insincere.

Any dispute can undermine a democracy, but sincere disputes are necessary from time to time.  Insincere ones are not necessary.  Right?

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Anyone would lose their mind trying to fight the deep state swamp. 

Siding with them and pretending everything is hunky dory is even more disturbing.

"Anyone would lose their mind..."

Then you agree he has lost his mind.

I would agree he is frustrated beyond all belief and would probably do things differently if he could do it all over in regards to some of the people he trusted.

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So objecting to an election certification is a threat to democracy now? Funny how that works, huh?

https://youtu.be/6D00MmTuja8

Good video.
They didn't include all of the objections.  Corrine Brown also objected that day.
Not that it would have changed the outcome; Republicans had a majority in both chambers and any dispute between the two chambers about certification would have gone to the governor of FL, also Republican.
The objections we see on the 6th also aren't going to change the outcome.  Democrats control the House and enough Republicans have signalled that they have no stomach for this that the two houses will agree that Biden won each of the disputed states.

What's different is the sincerity.

In 2000, all Democrats really believed that Gore would have won if hand recounts had been completed in a timely fashion.  They ran out of time, and the Supreme Court ruled that they must honor the deadline.  No one accused the Democrats of posturing or insincerity - they were accused of whining and of being sore losers.  The deadline was just as much a part of the rules as the casting of ballots and the counting of ballots, even if miscounted votes could have been found if they were given more time.

In 2020, Ben Sasse says that all Republican lawmakers confess privately that they know Biden won, but some of them are posturing to improve their chances in the next election.  I see no reason to doubt Sasse's word on this.  Do you?  The dispute this time is insincere.

Any dispute can undermine a democracy, but sincere disputes are necessary from time to time.  Insincere ones are not necessary.  Right?

Wait! According to you, a video that didn't include the whole context? NOW it's a thing?

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Good video.
They didn't include all of the objections.  Corrine Brown also objected that day.
Not that it would have changed the outcome; Republicans had a majority in both chambers and any dispute between the two chambers about certification would have gone to the governor of FL, also Republican.
The objections we see on the 6th also aren't going to change the outcome.  Democrats control the House and enough Republicans have signalled that they have no stomach for this that the two houses will agree that Biden won each of the disputed states.

What's different is the sincerity.

In 2000, all Democrats really believed that Gore would have won if hand recounts had been completed in a timely fashion.  They ran out of time, and the Supreme Court ruled that they must honor the deadline.  No one accused the Democrats of posturing or insincerity - they were accused of whining and of being sore losers.  The deadline was just as much a part of the rules as the casting of ballots and the counting of ballots, even if miscounted votes could have been found if they were given more time.

In 2020, Ben Sasse says that all Republican lawmakers confess privately that they know Biden won, but some of them are posturing to improve their chances in the next election.  I see no reason to doubt Sasse's word on this.  Do you?  The dispute this time is insincere.

Any dispute can undermine a democracy, but sincere disputes are necessary from time to time.  Insincere ones are not necessary.  Right?

Wait! According to you, a video that didn't include the whole context? NOW it's a thing?

No, I just thought it was interesting to note that there was a Jacksonville connection to the story, Jacksonville's now-jailbird rep Corrine Brown participated in the shenanigans that day.

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Well, I had to read it because the video isn't working. It's easier for me to listen to Trump's ramblings than to read them. If he would let people talk, we'd have more information. Like I said, I don't trust Raffensburger, and I believe he's not being honest in that phone call. I don't like how he doesn't have an answer for a lot of the questions. He responds with "it was investigated," but never gives details, even when pressed. It's clear that he's not cooperating with the Trump administration with regard to voter information. Germany answers a couple questions, but only about out-of-state voters. All that aside, I get frustrated with Trump for not pressing an answer. He's so impatient. He jumps around too much instead of holding anyone's feet to the fire. 

As to Trump pressuring him. I think that's true. However, he's pressuring him to examine and give an account for the numbers being put forth by the Trump administration, and Raffensburger is ducking it. I am not privy to the exchanges that have happened between the parties in the past, but, in the phone call at least, They don't give a single detailed answer. From the transcript I'm reading, this is not on Trump, but it might appear different if I was listening to them speak. I thought this was interesting:

[font=georgia,]Mitchell: Mr. Secretary, Mr. President, one of the things that we have been, Alex can talk about this, we talked about it, and I don’t know whether the information has been conveyed to your office, but I think what the president is saying, and what we’ve been trying to do is to say, look, the court is not acting on our petition. They haven’t even assigned a judge. But the people of Georgia and the people of America have a right to know the answers. And you have data and records that we don’t have access to.[/font]

[font=georgia,]And you can keep telling us and making public statement that you investigated this and nothing to see here. But we don’t know about that. All we know is what you tell us. What I don’t understand is why wouldn’t it be in everyone’s best interest to try to get to the bottom, compare the numbers, you know, if you say, because . . . to try to be able to get to the truth because we don’t have any way of confirming what you’re telling us. You tell us that you had an investigation at the State Farm Arena. I don’t have any report. I’ve never seen a report of investigation. I don’t know that is. I’ve been pretty involved in this, and I don’t know. And that’s just one of 25 categories. And it doesn’t even. And as I, as the president said, we haven’t even gotten into the Dominion issue. That’s not part of our case. It’s not part of, we just didn’t feel as though we had any to be able to develop —
[/font]
[font=georgia,]Trump: No, we do have a way, but I don’t want to get into it. We found a way . . . excuse me, but we don’t need it because we’re only down 11,000 votes, so we don’t even need it. I personally think they’re corrupt as hell. But we don’t need that. All we have to do, Cleta, is find 11,000-plus votes. So we don’t need that. I’m not looking to shake up the whole world. We won Georgia easily. We won it by hundreds of thousands of votes. But if you go by basic, simple numbers, we won it easily, easily. So we’re not giving Dominion a pass on the record. We don’t need Dominion because we have so many other votes that we don’t need to prove it any more than we already have.
[/font]
[font=georgia,]Hilbert: Mr. President and Cleta, this is Kurt Hilbert, if I might interject for a moment. Ryan, I would like to suggest that just four categories that have already been mentioned by the president that have actually hard numbers of 24,149 votes that were counted illegally. That in and of itself is sufficient to change the results or place the outcome in doubt. We would like to sit down with your office, and we can do it through purposes of compromise and just like this phone call, just to deal with that limited category of votes. And if you are able to establish that our numbers are not accurate, then fine. However, we believe that they are accurate. We’ve had now three to four separate experts looking at these numbers.
[/font]
[font=georgia,]Trump: Certified accountants looked at them.
[/font]
[font=georgia,]Hilbert: Correct. And this is just based on USPS data and your own secretary of state data. So that’s what we would entreat and ask you to do, to sit down with us in a compromise and settlements proceeding and actually go through the registered voter IDs and the registrations. And if you can convince us that 24,149 is inaccurate, then fine. But we tend to believe that is, you know, obviously more than 11,779. That’s sufficient to change the results entirely in and of itself. So what would you say to that, Mr. Germany?
[/font]
[font=georgia,]Germany: I’m happy to get with our lawyers, and we’ll set that up. That number is not accurate. And I think we can show you, for all the ones we’ve looked at, why it’s not. And so if that would be helpful, I’m happy to get with our lawyers and set that up with you guys.
[/font]
[font=georgia,]Trump: Well, let me ask you, Kurt, you think that is an accurate number. That was based on the information given to you by the secretary of state’s department, right?
[/font]
[font=georgia,]Hilbert: That is correct. That information is the minimum, most conservative data based upon the USPS data and the secretary of state’s office data that has been made publicly available. We do not have the internal numbers from the secretary of state. Yet we have asked for it six times. I sent a letter over to . . . several times requesting this information, and it’s been rebuffed every single time. So it stands to reason that if the information is not forthcoming, there’s something to hide. That’s the problem that we have.
[/font]
[font=georgia,]Germany: Well, that’s not the case, sir. There are things that you guys are entitled to get. And there’s things that under law, we are not allowed to give out.

[font=Franklin, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=georgia,]Meadows: Mr. President, this is Mark. It sounds like we’ve got two different sides agreeing that we can look at those areas, and I assume that we can do that within the next 24 to 48 hours, to go ahead and get that reconciled so that we can look at the two claims and making sure that we get the access to the secretary of state’s data to either validate or invalidate the claims that have been made. Is that correct?
[/font]
[/font][/font]
[font=georgia,]Germany: No, that’s not what I said. I’m happy to have our lawyers sit down with Kurt and the lawyers on that side and explain to him, hey, here’s, based on what we’ve looked at so far, here’s how we know this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong.
[/font]

[font=georgia,]Meadows: So what you’re saying, Ryan, let me let me make sure . . . so what you’re saying is you really don’t want to give access to the data. You just want to make another case on why the lawsuit is wrong?
[/font]

[font=georgia,]Germany: I don’t think we can give access to data that’s protected by law. But we can sit down with them and say —
[/font]

[font=georgia,]Trump: But you’re allowed to have a phony election? You’re allowed to have a phony election, right?
[/font]

[font=georgia,]Germany: No, sir.
[/font]

[font=georgia,]Trump: When are you going to do signature counts, when are you going to do signature verification on Fulton County, which you said you were going to do, and now all of a sudden, you’re not doing it. When are you doing that?
[/font]

[font=georgia,]Germany: We are going to do that. We’ve announced —
[/font]

[font=georgia,]Hilbert: To get to this issue of the personal information and privacy issue, is it possible that the secretary of state could deputize the lawyers for the president so that we could access that information and private information without you having any kind of violation?
[/font]

[font=georgia,]Trump: Well, I don’t want to know who it is. You guys can do it very confidentially. You can sign a confidentiality agreement. That’s okay. I don’t need to know names. But on this stuff that we’re talking about, we got all that information from the secretary of state.
[/font]

[font=georgia,]Meadows: Yeah. So let me let me recommend, Ryan, if you and Kurt will get together, you know, when we get off of this phone call, if you could get together and work out a plan to address some of what we’ve got with your attorneys where we can we can actually look at the data. For example, Mr. Secretary, I can you say they were only two dead people who would vote. I can promise you there are more than that. And that may be what your investigation shows, but I can promise you there are more than that. But at the same time, I think it’s important that we go ahead and move expeditiously to try to do this and resolve it as quickly as we possibly can. And if that’s the good next step. Hopefully we can, we can finish this phone call and go ahead and agree that the two of you will get together immediately.[/font]. 

Bottom line, Raffensburger is not cooperating with the Trump team of giving them any detailed analysis. According to Trump, he is saying they have discovered 24k votes that are illegal under GA law. Raffensburger and Germany are saying his numbers are wrong but they won't show him why. None of this has been heard by the courts, so there is no way of knowing whose numbers are correct. Trump isn't telling Raffensburger to manufacture 12k votes. He's asking him to verify their numbers show them how they are incorrect. Seems reasonable to me. 

Pretty much nailed my guess.

Raffensburger's role in the Presidential Election is done.
He certified Biden as the winner, and now a federal deadline has passed and that certification can't be changed
Georgia's electors cast ballots for Biden and put them in the envelope with the state seal and the envelope will be opened on Wednesday.
Just like in 2000, you can ask for all the data you want and keep recounting for the next 100 years, but for legal purposes, the counting is over.
This is in Congress' hands now.

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

The fact of the matter is Trump's attorneys need to go through lawful processes to contest the election. Each and every time they attempted to do so in the court of law, they lost. Additionally, what they communicate on twitter and within that transcript are not the accusations they make when filing claims. They reason for that is because attorneys are held to a standard of ethics when filing claims so they avoid making non-substantiated claims in the court of law.

Trump is pretty much like OJ denying that he killed Ron and Nicole. If you say it enough, then you actually start believing it.

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Well, I had to read it because the video isn't working. It's easier for me to listen to Trump's ramblings than to read them. If he would let people talk, we'd have more information. Like I said, I don't trust Raffensburger, and I believe he's not being honest in that phone call. I don't like how he doesn't have an answer for a lot of the questions. He responds with "it was investigated," but never gives details, even when pressed. It's clear that he's not cooperating with the Trump administration with regard to voter information. Germany answers a couple questions, but only about out-of-state voters. All that aside, I get frustrated with Trump for not pressing an answer. He's so impatient. He jumps around too much instead of holding anyone's feet to the fire. 

As to Trump pressuring him. I think that's true. However, he's pressuring him to examine and give an account for the numbers being put forth by the Trump administration, and Raffensburger is ducking it. I am not privy to the exchanges that have happened between the parties in the past, but, in the phone call at least, They don't give a single detailed answer. From the transcript I'm reading, this is not on Trump, but it might appear different if I was listening to them speak. I thought this was interesting:
Bottom line, Raffensburger is not cooperating with the Trump team of giving them any detailed analysis. According to Trump, he is saying they have discovered 24k votes that are illegal under GA law. Raffensburger and Germany are saying his numbers are wrong but they won't show him why. None of this has been heard by the courts, so there is no way of knowing whose numbers are correct. Trump isn't telling Raffensburger to manufacture 12k votes. He's asking him to verify their numbers show them how they are incorrect. Seems reasonable to me. 

Pretty much nailed my guess.

The votes have been counted three times in Georgia, both electronically and by hand. What's Raffensperger going to say? "Sure, let's do another recount to find those 24,000 illegal votes that our first two recounts didn't catch"?

It's over. Trump lost. I haven't heard the entire phone call, but I have heard much more than the snippets released. Two things are clear:

1. Trump doesn't think he's lost. He's obsessed with holding on to power.
2. Trump wants Raffensperger to do whatever he has to to reverse the result in Georgia and give his supporters in Congress ammo. He tells Raffensperger to "find" the exact number of votes needed to do so and offers up possible stories for Raffensperger to choose from. You think he was really asking about fraudulent ballots and Dominion machines? Hell no! He was backdoor telling Raffensperger to pick and choose his story from those ideas, just like a slimy corrupt politician would. And when it's clear that Raffensperger is refusing to be a part of this sham anymore, Trump threatens him.

There's no interest on Trump's part in examining and accounting for the numbers. He wants Raffensperger to flip just enough votes for him to win. How much more clear does it get? Trump said, "Find me 11,780 votes", and immediately stated that that was one more than they needed to win the state. That is not something that someone interested in the truth says, and no force on this earth or beyond will ever convince me otherwise.

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Here's something funny that happened the other day.  Trump tweeted 

“I love the Great State of Georgia, but the people who run it, from the Governor, @BrianKempGA, to the Secretary of State, are a complete disaster and don’t have a clue, or worse. Nobody can be this stupid. Just allow us to find the crime, and turn the state Republican."  

He continued- “Now it turns out that Brad R’s brother works for China, and they definitely don’t want ‘Trump’. So disgusting!”    

Raffensperger doesn't have a brother.  So where did Trump get the idea that led to the tweet?   It turns out, there is a Ron Raffensperger who works for a Chinese company, but he is completely unrelated to the Georgia Secretary of State.

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Hahahah is that true?!

God that’s good. What a noob.

---

Yeah. Plenty of misinformation out there. I try to be as thorough as possible and I can't even get close to staying ahead of it all.

It's clear Trump is desperate, but there's no stopping what's coming at this point. That said, reading the transcript, I didn't see anything out of character for Trump. He felt he won, he believes he has the numbers that would overturn it if Raffensburger would confirm it. Raffensburger denies Trump's numbers are accurate, but can't or won't show him why. This would be frustrating for any one of us in the same situation. I don't fault Trump for being annoyed. I fault him for not being prepared. This ultimately falls on him, imo.

I still believe Dems cheated. Without institutional proof, no court should overturn the results, though. We really need better transparency in our elections. This would be a priority if people really wanted unity in this country, but nothing will change. It will fade into the background until the next election.

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