Those facts are roughly true, but, does this mean whites did "the most"?
A similar number of Chinese were killed by Mao.  A smaller but still amazingly high number of Chinese were killed by the Japanese during the invasion of Manchuria and WWII.  Vietnam and Cambodia are smaller countries, but the things they did to themselves from 1954 to 1978 are staggering, proportionally speaking.  Yes, the US and French helped, but most of the evil was Asian on Asian violence. And as brutal as the Belgians were to the peoples of Congo/Zaire/Rwanda/Burundi, can we really blame the Belgians for the genocide in Rwanda?  History is a very sad place, and the human heart is a very dark place.  No one has a monopoly on atrocity, nor does anyone have an immunity to it.

Yeah, in terms of killing another race, whites are miles ahead.

Doubtful.
The Japanese definitely thought the Chinese were a different race.  The Hutus definitely thought the Tutsis were a different race.

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Yeah, in terms of killing another race, whites are miles ahead.

Doubtful.
The Japanese definitely thought the Chinese were a different race.  The Hutus definitely thought the Tutsis were a different race.

There is no doubt about it.  Japanese kills 20 million Chinese, but despite what the Japanese thought, these are Asians killing Asians. And Rwanda genocide resulted in less than a million deaths.

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CCL Stroudcrowd1

Read much on Arabs? Or is that verboten? Also, did you ever ask how those numbers were calculated?

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Those facts are roughly true, but, does this mean whites did "the most"?
A similar number of Chinese were killed by Mao.  A smaller but still amazingly high number of Chinese were killed by the Japanese during the invasion of Manchuria and WWII.  Vietnam and Cambodia are smaller countries, but the things they did to themselves from 1954 to 1978 are staggering, proportionally speaking.  Yes, the US and French helped, but most of the evil was Asian on Asian violence. And as brutal as the Belgians were to the peoples of Congo/Zaire/Rwanda/Burundi, can we really blame the Belgians for the genocide in Rwanda?  History is a very sad place, and the human heart is a very dark place.  No one has a monopoly on atrocity, nor does anyone have an immunity to it.

Yeah, in terms of killing another race, whites are miles ahead.

That’s likely true. Which begs the next question. So?

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Yeah, in terms of killing another race, whites are miles ahead.

That’s likely true. Which begs the next question. So?

Why does it have to beg a further question? It's just a statement of fact that'll make some uncomfortable enough that they will try to refute it.

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CCL Stroudcrowd1

Your entire premise lacks context but carry on.

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Original Season Ticket Holder - Retired  1995 - 2020


At some point you just have to let go of what you thought should happen and live in what is happening.
 

That’s likely true. Which begs the next question. So?

Why does it have to beg a further question? It's just a statement of fact that'll make some uncomfortable enough that they will try to refute it.

I'm not uncomfortable with teaching historical facts.  Apparently HB isn't either.  But L2L is. And many are like L2L.

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Oh shut the [BLEEP] up. I have no problem with history. it's just that you guys learn from people with an agenda. History is full of tragedy. It's full of othering. It's full of poverty. The question is RARELY what people did wrong in history. The question is really what did people do differently that deviated from almost EVERYTHING ELSE that was done incorrectly. This will never be discussed among those with an agenda, which happen to be the people you parrot.

I'm still waiting for you to cite the REAL historians and the REAL economists that have guided you to your enlightenment. Any day now you intellectual poser.

I want the context of that 50 million number cited above. The fact that you think I'm uncomfortable with "facts" because I ask for context shows your lack of understanding... not just about the subject at hand but thinking in general.

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Don’t play dumb, you know it’s because you want to equate being for traditional values with being a closet racist

Well let's be honest, traditional values does equate to being racist and sexist.

Traditional value are based on a traditional household where the woman's role was to spread her legs and get pregnant and then rear the children while the man earned the household money. It's also about communities of the same.  White people only associate with white people and black people do the same.  Whites go to church with whites and blacks go to church with church with blacks and never the twain shall meet.  Only Christian values are taught at schools.  Mohammad and Allah - that's some foreign Arab thing - yuk.  Buddhism - isn't that some cute fat guy who's belly we rub for luck.

I had to come back to this and ask, do you really think this is true? I know a lot of folks with traditional values and 100% of them do not think the way you describe. Some may hold to some stricter traditions than others, but not any of them are living like it's 1953. 

Traditional values would be a man and woman who are married and may/may not have kids. That the husband is the head of the household. Kids are taught to respect everyone, especially those who are older. Abstain from sex before marriage. Work hard and provide for your family. Going to church. DoIng things in your community to help others. 

Not a single traditional value has anything to do with racism or seeing anyone as second class citizens. The folks who do, do so because they are just bitter people, or they were raised by haters, not because of traditional values. There folks without traditional values being taught to be hateful. 

Those values have nothing to do with who goes to what church. It used to bother me that the majority of churches I've seen do tend toward being all white or all black. A black friend of mine said white churches just aren't loud and lively enough, that our cultures are too different. My sister in Ohio is married to a Korean fellow and on Sundays he goes to the Korean church and she goes to the non-Korean church. He says it's a cultural thing. Yes, that word again. But I've seen multicultural churches in big cities (think NYC) that are really fantastic. Why do they work in big cities and not smaller towns? I wish they did.

I think a lot of issues that are seen as racial or racist are very much cultural or nationality differences. It has nothing to do with not liking another person because of their skin color but rather not relating to their culture or nationality. Yes, there is racism. Outright and ugly racism. And it's wrong on every level. But not everything is about race to the average person. It just isn't. But the media and the entertainment industry want us to think it is because that's how they make money. I won't even go into how politicians use it to their advantage. 

It really does bother me that people think the way you described because it is not true of a lot of people who hold to those values. Specifically those my age and younger. We just don't think that way. And don't confuse political conservatives and those who hold traditional values. They're not always one and the same. My in-laws are democrats but hold very traditional values. Something I learned a few years ago was to never confuse someone's politics with their values.

---

Well let's be honest, traditional values does equate to being racist and sexist.

Traditional value are based on a traditional household where the woman's role was to spread her legs and get pregnant and then rear the children while the man earned the household money. It's also about communities of the same.  White people only associate with white people and black people do the same.  Whites go to church with whites and blacks go to church with church with blacks and never the twain shall meet.  Only Christian values are taught at schools.  Mohammad and Allah - that's some foreign Arab thing - yuk.  Buddhism - isn't that some cute fat guy who's belly we rub for luck.

I had to come back to this and ask, do you really think this is true? I know a lot of folks with traditional values and 100% of them do not think the way you describe. Some may hold to some stricter traditions than others, but not any of them are living like it's 1953. 

Traditional values would be a man and woman who are married and may/may not have kids. That the husband is the head of the household. Kids are taught to respect everyone, especially those who are older. Abstain from sex before marriage. Work hard and provide for your family. Going to church. DoIng things in your community to help others. 

Not a single traditional value has anything to do with racism or seeing anyone as second class citizens. The folks who do, do so because they are just bitter people, or they were raised by haters, not because of traditional values. There folks without traditional values being taught to be hateful. 

Those values have nothing to do with who goes to what church. It used to bother me that the majority of churches I've seen do tend toward being all white or all black. A black friend of mine said white churches just aren't loud and lively enough, that our cultures are too different. My sister in Ohio is married to a Korean fellow and on Sundays he goes to the Korean church and she goes to the non-Korean church. He says it's a cultural thing. Yes, that word again. But I've seen multicultural churches in big cities (think NYC) that are really fantastic. Why do they work in big cities and not smaller towns? I wish they did.

I think a lot of issues that are seen as racial or racist are very much cultural or nationality differences. It has nothing to do with not liking another person because of their skin color but rather not relating to their culture or nationality. Yes, there is racism. Outright and ugly racism. And it's wrong on every level. But not everything is about race to the average person. It just isn't. But the media and the entertainment industry want us to think it is because that's how they make money. I won't even go into how politicians use it to their advantage. 

It really does bother me that people think the way you described because it is not true of a lot of people who hold to those values. Specifically those my age and younger. We just don't think that way. And don't confuse political conservatives and those who hold traditional values. They're not always one and the same. My in-laws are democrats but hold very traditional values. Something I learned a few years ago was to never confuse someone's politics with their values.

Some people need to read this twice..

---

Most of the values discussed here can be spun as positives, if you adopt them, or negatives if you don't. "The mother gets to stay home" vs "the woman is forced to have a baby and stay home with it".

But the race aspect can't be spun, of course. We aren't debating if other traditional values are good. Personally I think most of them are. We are debating how prominent racism was, among the traditional values we used to have. In my opinion it was by far the biggest and it infected the others. Consider chastity. Great value. The Tulsa race riot was triggered by rumors of interracial flirting in a department store. The Rosewood massacre was caused by rumors of a black man attempting to rape a white woman near a rail yard. Earlier generations believed in chastity. But they didn't riot about violations of chastity. They rioted about racially charged violations.

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

The race aspect can be spun. You're spinning it.

Othering was common. We did it for nationality, poverty, race, etc. We have also been working to rid ourselves of it. You are fixated on only one aspect of the American struggle.

---

Most of the values discussed here can be spun as positives, if you adopt them, or negatives if you don't.  "The mother gets to stay home" vs "the woman is forced to have a baby and stay home with it".

But the race aspect can't be spun, of course.  We aren't debating if other traditional values are good.  Personally I think most of them are.  We are debating how prominent racism was, among the traditional values we used to have.  In my opinion it was by far the biggest and it infected the others.  Consider chastity.  Great value.  The Tulsa race riot was triggered by rumors of interracial flirting in a department store.  The Rosewood massacre was caused by rumors of a black man attempting to rape a white woman near a rail yard.  Earlier generations believed in chastity.  But they didn't riot about violations of chastity.  They rioted about racially charged violations.

I'm not spinning [BLEEP]. You're talking about the past and I'm talking about present day. What happened in the past is awful but we don't live in 1953 anymore and folks on the left need to stop trying to convince people that we do to pad their agenda. I am so sick and tired of this BS.

---

Most of the values discussed here can be spun as positives, if you adopt them, or negatives if you don't.  "The mother gets to stay home" vs "the woman is forced to have a baby and stay home with it".

But the race aspect can't be spun, of course.  We aren't debating if other traditional values are good.  Personally I think most of them are.  We are debating how prominent racism was, among the traditional values we used to have.  In my opinion it was by far the biggest and it infected the others.  Consider chastity.  Great value.  The Tulsa race riot was triggered by rumors of interracial flirting in a department store.  The Rosewood massacre was caused by rumors of a black man attempting to rape a white woman near a rail yard.  Earlier generations believed in chastity.  But they didn't riot about violations of chastity.  They rioted about racially charged violations.

I'm not spinning [BLEEP]. You're talking about the past and I'm talking about present day. What happened in the past is awful but we don't live in 1953 anymore and folks on the left need to stop trying to convince people that we do to pad their agenda. I am so sick and tired of this BS.

If you only speak of the present without reference to the past, how is there any tradition at all?

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Well let's be honest, traditional values does equate to being racist and sexist.

Traditional value are based on a traditional household where the woman's role was to spread her legs and get pregnant and then rear the children while the man earned the household money. It's also about communities of the same.  White people only associate with white people and black people do the same.  Whites go to church with whites and blacks go to church with church with blacks and never the twain shall meet.  Only Christian values are taught at schools.  Mohammad and Allah - that's some foreign Arab thing - yuk.  Buddhism - isn't that some cute fat guy who's belly we rub for luck.

I had to come back to this and ask, do you really think this is true? I know a lot of folks with traditional values and 100% of them do not think the way you describe. Some may hold to some stricter traditions than others, but not any of them are living like it's 1953. 

Traditional values would be a man and woman who are married and may/may not have kids. That the husband is the head of the household. Kids are taught to respect everyone, especially those who are older. Abstain from sex before marriage. Work hard and provide for your family. Going to church. DoIng things in your community to help others. 

Not a single traditional value has anything to do with racism or seeing anyone as second class citizens. The folks who do, do so because they are just bitter people, or they were raised by haters, not because of traditional values. There folks without traditional values being taught to be hateful. 

Those values have nothing to do with who goes to what church. It used to bother me that the majority of churches I've seen do tend toward being all white or all black. A black friend of mine said white churches just aren't loud and lively enough, that our cultures are too different. My sister in Ohio is married to a Korean fellow and on Sundays he goes to the Korean church and she goes to the non-Korean church. He says it's a cultural thing. Yes, that word again. But I've seen multicultural churches in big cities (think NYC) that are really fantastic. Why do they work in big cities and not smaller towns? I wish they did.

I think a lot of issues that are seen as racial or racist are very much cultural or nationality differences. It has nothing to do with not liking another person because of their skin color but rather not relating to their culture or nationality. Yes, there is racism. Outright and ugly racism. And it's wrong on every level. But not everything is about race to the average person. It just isn't. But the media and the entertainment industry want us to think it is because that's how they make money. I won't even go into how politicians use it to their advantage. 

It really does bother me that people think the way you described because it is not true of a lot of people who hold to those values. Specifically those my age and younger. We just don't think that way. And don't confuse political conservatives and those who hold traditional values. They're not always one and the same. My in-laws are democrats but hold very traditional values. Something I learned a few years ago was to never confuse someone's politics with their values.

Can't improve on this.

---

"Remember Red, Hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."  - Andy Dufresne, The Shawshank Redemption

Well let's be honest, traditional values does equate to being racist and sexist.

Traditional value are based on a traditional household where the woman's role was to spread her legs and get pregnant and then rear the children while the man earned the household money. It's also about communities of the same.  White people only associate with white people and black people do the same.  Whites go to church with whites and blacks go to church with church with blacks and never the twain shall meet.  Only Christian values are taught at schools.  Mohammad and Allah - that's some foreign Arab thing - yuk.  Buddhism - isn't that some cute fat guy who's belly we rub for luck.

I had to come back to this and ask, do you really think this is true? I know a lot of folks with traditional values and 100% of them do not think the way you describe. Some may hold to some stricter traditions than others, but not any of them are living like it's 1953. 

Traditional values would be a man and woman who are married and may/may not have kids. That the husband is the head of the household. Kids are taught to respect everyone, especially those who are older. Abstain from sex before marriage. Work hard and provide for your family. Going to church. DoIng things in your community to help others. 

Not a single traditional value has anything to do with racism or seeing anyone as second class citizens. The folks who do, do so because they are just bitter people, or they were raised by haters, not because of traditional values. There folks without traditional values being taught to be hateful. 

Those values have nothing to do with who goes to what church. It used to bother me that the majority of churches I've seen do tend toward being all white or all black. A black friend of mine said white churches just aren't loud and lively enough, that our cultures are too different. My sister in Ohio is married to a Korean fellow and on Sundays he goes to the Korean church and she goes to the non-Korean church. He says it's a cultural thing. Yes, that word again. But I've seen multicultural churches in big cities (think NYC) that are really fantastic. Why do they work in big cities and not smaller towns? I wish they did.

I think a lot of issues that are seen as racial or racist are very much cultural or nationality differences. It has nothing to do with not liking another person because of their skin color but rather not relating to their culture or nationality. Yes, there is racism. Outright and ugly racism. And it's wrong on every level. But not everything is about race to the average person. It just isn't. But the media and the entertainment industry want us to think it is because that's how they make money. I won't even go into how politicians use it to their advantage. 

It really does bother me that people think the way you described because it is not true of a lot of people who hold to those values. Specifically those my age and younger. We just don't think that way. And don't confuse political conservatives and those who hold traditional values. They're not always one and the same. My in-laws are democrats but hold very traditional values. Something I learned a few years ago was to never confuse someone's politics with their values.

My post was intentional provocative to show that the term traditional means nothing without a timestamp.  Even then, not everyone agreed with those values but you could at least argue that the pervading values at a point in time were X, Y and Z.  

Your sister could be argued as having very progressive values in marrying a Korean and going to a Korean church to someone born in 1940.  But to someone born in 2000, it wouldn't raise an eyebrow.

A lot of "traditional" values are  sexist and racist by today's standards.  Heck, the Declaration of Independence states that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"....as a woman - sorry, you're [BLEEP] outta luck.

Do I believe in the traditional values I listed?  No!  Do I believe in the traditional values you listed?  No!

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CCL Stroudcrowd1

Where are you from again, Captivating?

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I think it very telling that two of the biggest progressives on the forum instantly think white supremacy and slavery when they hear the term traditional values.

---

Original Season Ticket Holder - Retired  1995 - 2020


At some point you just have to let go of what you thought should happen and live in what is happening.
 

Where are you from again, Captivating?

The State of Relativity.

---

"Remember Red, Hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."  - Andy Dufresne, The Shawshank Redemption

I think it very telling that two of the biggest progressives on the forum instantly think white supremacy and slavery when they hear the term traditional values.

I'm not a progressive.

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.