ChrisJagBoy,

Just a few more questions...if you would be so kind.  We blue hairs have a hard time understanding at times.

1.  Looking at the numbers, Peyton Manning threw exactly the same number of TDs in his rookie year as he did in his second.  Considering Manning was in his second year, with a full season's worth of experience under his belt, in the same offense and still superior surrounding talent, it's a shock he didn't improve in the number of TD passes thrown.  Meanwhile, the comparatively mentally enfeebled Trevor Lawrence (per your tacit analysis) managed to more than double his own TD output fro year one to year two.  To what do you attribute that?  Why no mention of his stagnant TD totals between year one to year two in your analysis?

2.  Peyton Manning, he of the NFL bloodlines and pedigree, didn't win his first playoff game despite  superior surrounding offensive talent until the 2003 season0his 5th in the league.  Strange, considering he made the playoffs in 1999, 2000, and 2002-three of his first five year.  However, Trevor Lawrence-he with many more flaws coming out than Manning, won his first playoff game in his first playoff start,,,which came in his second year.  How wass Trevor Lawrence able to win in the post season before Manning managed to do so?

3.  Last season, Trevor Lawrence, who, per your various arguments, seems almost doomed to throw an excessive number of INTs.  Yet to the best of my recollection, you didn't deviate from that premise until I pointed out the reduction in his INT total into single digits this past season.  Yet Peyton Manning only managed single digits in INTs only once in his career in 20060the 9th year of his career.  How did that happen?

4.  In an earlier post, you made the argument that left the impression it is near inexcusable for a would be elite QB to throw for less than 30 TDs in a season.  Yet after two seasons, Peyton Manning had not eclipsed the 26 TDs he threw in his first year, or for that matter, the 26 Trevor Lawrence threw last year.  Based upon your analysis, was Manning NOT a top 5 or elite QB during his first two years in the league? 

Again, math is not my strong suit, but TL has thrown 15 fewer INTs over his first two years than Manning his first two years, threw the same number of TDs (26) by year two as Manning despite having inferior talent at his disposal, and had a higher completion percentage his first two seasons than Manning had in his first two years, and won his first playoff game some four years ahead of the pace set by Peyton Manning.  So if  Lawrence's numbers are better overall in his first two years than Manning's and his performance in the playoffs in terms of win production is ahead of the pace set by Manning, what's the basis for arguing Manning was better his first two years?  Is it possible that Trevor Lawrence was actually better his first two years than Mannins?  Why wouldn't you have been down on Manning, if so?

Please forgive me for not grasping these tacit nuances of your arguments earlier.  I am not always able to avail myself of the senior discounts at Denny's and other various establishments and I must have missed it.

I suspect the little guy was not yet born during Manning's first two years in the League. It would explain his inability to understand your point.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

There's a couple of guys on the roster that we acquired last year who could be in the mix as well. Both Cole van Lanen and Blake Hance are a few years in to the League now and both can play the Guard spots. I think there might be more competition in camp than just Shatley and Bartch; it would be nice to see one of the jars come off the shelf and go on the field instead of into the trash can like usual.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Time is Creeping slowly to training camp. lol

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There's a couple of guys on the roster that we acquired last year who could be in the mix as well. Both Cole van Lanen and Blake Hance are a few years in to the League now and both can play the Guard spots. I think there might be more competition in camp than just Shatley and Bartch; it would be nice to see one of the jars come off the shelf and go on the field instead of into the trash can like usual.

I recall VanLanen getting some reg season snaps last year when someone was banged up. 

It was, um, not good. Not to say a young player can't improve, but... it was pretty ugly.

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There's a couple of guys on the roster that we acquired last year who could be in the mix as well. Both Cole van Lanen and Blake Hance are a few years in to the League now and both can play the Guard spots. I think there might be more competition in camp than just Shatley and Bartch; it would be nice to see one of the jars come off the shelf and go on the field instead of into the trash can like usual.

I recall VanLanen getting some reg season snaps last year when someone was banged up. 

It was, um, not good. Not to say a young player can't improve, but... it was pretty ugly.

Yeah. I remember that play. I think somebody lost a helmet. Probably Scherff. Van Lanen came in, got blown up and I think Lawrence was sacked in a fugly way. I think it was the clots game on the road.

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"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

I’m right there with you. I can’t remember this many legit offensive weapons since the 1999 season. 

We added Bigsby and Ridley to an offense that had a 4,000 yard passer, 1,000 yard receiver and a 1,000 yard rusher and a TE that broke the all time franchise single season receiving yards for a TE.

(Empnasis added)

Hmmm....wheels in my head are turning. 


A player for player comparison might me warranted.

QB:  !999 Mark Brunell vs. 2023 Trevor Lawrence-I'd give the edge to Trevor Lawrence.  Brunell had good mobility, though not quite as good as he was pre 1997 knee injury.  He had a good arm, threw a good deep ball and was a good leader with a 6-1 frame.    Trevor Lawrence has better mobility with a 6-6 frame.  He has a stronger arm, throwing good passes at all three levels.  I think he's better in the red zone than Brunell.  This is his second year in the offense.  I expect his numbers, which surpassed anything Brunell did as a Jaguar, to be even better this year.

RB:  1999-Fred Taylor and James Stewart vs. 2023 Travis Etienne and Tank Bigsby.  -Edge:  199 Fred Taylor and James Stewart.  Though Taylor was out much of the year due to injury, he was still far more explosive than Travis Etienne was last year, and Etienne was explosive.  But Etienne doesn't seem to have DT's long distance speed.  James Stewart had good size and seemed a little stiff, but he had his moments and was very good in the red zone.  Bigsby is yet unproven.

WR:1999 Jimmy Smith, Keenan McCardell & Willie Jackson  vs 203  Christian Kirk, Zay Jones, Calvin Ridley-This one is tougher then you might think.  From a speed perspective, I'd give the edge to the 2023 group.  All three are capable of getting deep.  Route running goes to the 1999 group.  The 2023 group runs good routes, as does the 1999 group.  I think if you are looking at just the two starters, the 1999 group would have the edge.  Going three WRs, I'd give the edge to 2023.

TE:1999 Kyle Brady vs. 2023 Evan Engram-Blocking would go to Brady.  Receiving goes to Engram.  He creates more mismatches and gets more separation on his routes than Brady did.  Better hands, too.  Even though Brady had his career year, he was known for a lot of drops.

LT:  Tony Boselli & Ben Coleman vs 2023 Cam Robinson/Walker Little/Anton Harrison-The 1999 duo gets the edge here.  While this year's group goes three deep (two of which are proven at LT in the NFL), the 1999 duo of Hall of Famer Tony Boselli and Ben Coleman gets the edge.  Boselli constantly shut down Pro Bowl DEs/OLBs like Bruce Smith, Jason Taylor, Kevin Green, Derrick Thomas (all Hall of Famers), and Coleman got some good games too.  WHile both Robinson and Little have had their moments, neither have the pedigree/resume of Boselli.

LG:  1999 Ben Coleman vs, 2023 Ben Bartch-1999 Coleman easily.  While he was tall and almost lanky for a G, he pass protected well.  As I indicated, he had long enough arms and good enough feet and balance to slide over to LT and shut down a top pass rusher.  Bartch?  Not so much.

C:  1999 John Wade v. 2023 Luke Fortner-I'd call that a push, though Fortner could end up being better long term.

RG:  1999 Zach Weigert vs. 2023 Brandon Scherff-  Edge-2023 Scherff.  Scherff has a better overall resume than Weigert.  Scherff is big, strong and powerful with a broad bse.  While Weigert's power is good coming out of Nebraska, he seemed stiff.

RT:  1999 Leon Searcy vs. 2023 Walker Little/Anton Harrison.  Edge:  1999 Searcy.  Searcy was a physical and nasty RT with a borderline devastating hand punch.  Little is more versatile, and in my estimation has performed well (though I hear the occasional speculation that the coaching staff may not be sold on him).  But if he continues to shake the rust off, stay healthy and play as well as he did last year or better, he could make it close.

Thoughts?

My thoughts are you’re right on the money. I would only swap Brunell over Lawrence but it’s splitting hairs. Lawrence went to a Pro Bowl and won a playoff game. Up until this season, Lawrence has 12 regular season wins in 2 seasons.  

At the end of the ‘99 season Brunell won 4 playoff games and made 3 Pro Bowls. Brunell also led the league in passing in ‘96 and won 44 games as a starter by the end of the ‘99 season.

Also, Willie Jackson was in his 2nd season with the Bengals in 1999. His last season in Jacksonville was 1997. You probably meant Reggie Barlow which doesn’t change anything because ‘99 WRs still win the edge. Jimmy Smith led the league in receiving yards in 1999 and was a Pro Bowler. McCardell also made the Pro Bowl in ‘96 as a Jaguar.

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(Empnasis added)

Hmmm....wheels in my head are turning. 


A player for player comparison might me warranted.

QB:  !999 Mark Brunell vs. 2023 Trevor Lawrence-I'd give the edge to Trevor Lawrence.  Brunell had good mobility, though not quite as good as he was pre 1997 knee injury.  He had a good arm, threw a good deep ball and was a good leader with a 6-1 frame.    Trevor Lawrence has better mobility with a 6-6 frame.  He has a stronger arm, throwing good passes at all three levels.  I think he's better in the red zone than Brunell.  This is his second year in the offense.  I expect his numbers, which surpassed anything Brunell did as a Jaguar, to be even better this year.

RB:  1999-Fred Taylor and James Stewart vs. 2023 Travis Etienne and Tank Bigsby.  -Edge:  199 Fred Taylor and James Stewart.  Though Taylor was out much of the year due to injury, he was still far more explosive than Travis Etienne was last year, and Etienne was explosive.  But Etienne doesn't seem to have DT's long distance speed.  James Stewart had good size and seemed a little stiff, but he had his moments and was very good in the red zone.  Bigsby is yet unproven.

WR:1999 Jimmy Smith, Keenan McCardell & Willie Jackson  vs 203  Christian Kirk, Zay Jones, Calvin Ridley-This one is tougher then you might think.  From a speed perspective, I'd give the edge to the 2023 group.  All three are capable of getting deep.  Route running goes to the 1999 group.  The 2023 group runs good routes, as does the 1999 group.  I think if you are looking at just the two starters, the 1999 group would have the edge.  Going three WRs, I'd give the edge to 2023.

TE:1999 Kyle Brady vs. 2023 Evan Engram-Blocking would go to Brady.  Receiving goes to Engram.  He creates more mismatches and gets more separation on his routes than Brady did.  Better hands, too.  Even though Brady had his career year, he was known for a lot of drops.

LT:  Tony Boselli & Ben Coleman vs 2023 Cam Robinson/Walker Little/Anton Harrison-The 1999 duo gets the edge here.  While this year's group goes three deep (two of which are proven at LT in the NFL), the 1999 duo of Hall of Famer Tony Boselli and Ben Coleman gets the edge.  Boselli constantly shut down Pro Bowl DEs/OLBs like Bruce Smith, Jason Taylor, Kevin Green, Derrick Thomas (all Hall of Famers), and Coleman got some good games too.  WHile both Robinson and Little have had their moments, neither have the pedigree/resume of Boselli.

LG:  1999 Ben Coleman vs, 2023 Ben Bartch-1999 Coleman easily.  While he was tall and almost lanky for a G, he pass protected well.  As I indicated, he had long enough arms and good enough feet and balance to slide over to LT and shut down a top pass rusher.  Bartch?  Not so much.

C:  1999 John Wade v. 2023 Luke Fortner-I'd call that a push, though Fortner could end up being better long term.

RG:  1999 Zach Weigert vs. 2023 Brandon Scherff-  Edge-2023 Scherff.  Scherff has a better overall resume than Weigert.  Scherff is big, strong and powerful with a broad bse.  While Weigert's power is good coming out of Nebraska, he seemed stiff.

RT:  1999 Leon Searcy vs. 2023 Walker Little/Anton Harrison.  Edge:  1999 Searcy.  Searcy was a physical and nasty RT with a borderline devastating hand punch.  Little is more versatile, and in my estimation has performed well (though I hear the occasional speculation that the coaching staff may not be sold on him).  But if he continues to shake the rust off, stay healthy and play as well as he did last year or better, he could make it close.

Thoughts?

My thoughts are you’re right on the money. I would only swap Brunell over Lawrence but it’s splitting hairs. Lawrence went to a Pro Bowl and won a playoff game. Up until this season, Lawrence has 12 regular season wins in 2 seasons.  

At the end of the ‘99 season Brunell won 4 playoff games and made 3 Pro Bowls. Brunell also led the league in passing in ‘96 and won 44 games as a starter by the end of the ‘99 season.

Also, Willie Jackson was in his 2nd season with the Bengals in 1999. His last season in Jacksonville was 1997. You probably meant Reggie Barlow which doesn’t change anything because ‘99 WRs still win the edge. Jimmy Smith led the league in receiving yards in 1999 and was a Pro Bowler. McCardell also made the Pro Bowl in ‘96 as a Jaguar.

(Emphasis added)


I sensed something was wrong with my Willie Jackson analysis, but it didn't dawn on me exactly what it was at the time and I wasn't inclined to look it up due to laziness. 

Mea culpa.  I stand corrected.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

ChrisJagBoy,

Just a few more questions...if you would be so kind.  We blue hairs have a hard time understanding at times.

1.  Looking at the numbers, Peyton Manning threw exactly the same number of TDs in his rookie year as he did in his second.  Considering Manning was in his second year, with a full season's worth of experience under his belt, in the same offense and still superior surrounding talent, it's a shock he didn't improve in the number of TD passes thrown.  Meanwhile, the comparatively mentally enfeebled Trevor Lawrence (per your tacit analysis) managed to more than double his own TD output fro year one to year two.  To what do you attribute that?  Why no mention of his stagnant TD totals between year one to year two in your analysis?

2.  Peyton Manning, he of the NFL bloodlines and pedigree, didn't win his first playoff game despite  superior surrounding offensive talent until the 2003 season0his 5th in the league.  Strange, considering he made the playoffs in 1999, 2000, and 2002-three of his first five year.  However, Trevor Lawrence-he with many more flaws coming out than Manning, won his first playoff game in his first playoff start,,,which came in his second year.  How wass Trevor Lawrence able to win in the post season before Manning managed to do so?

3.  Last season, Trevor Lawrence, who, per your various arguments, seems almost doomed to throw an excessive number of INTs.  Yet to the best of my recollection, you didn't deviate from that premise until I pointed out the reduction in his INT total into single digits this past season.  Yet Peyton Manning only managed single digits in INTs only once in his career in 20060the 9th year of his career.  How did that happen?

4.  In an earlier post, you made the argument that left the impression it is near inexcusable for a would be elite QB to throw for less than 30 TDs in a season.  Yet after two seasons, Peyton Manning had not eclipsed the 26 TDs he threw in his first year, or for that matter, the 26 Trevor Lawrence threw last year.  Based upon your analysis, was Manning NOT a top 5 or elite QB during his first two years in the league? 

Again, math is not my strong suit, but TL has thrown 15 fewer INTs over his first two years than Manning his first two years, threw the same number of TDs (26) by year two as Manning despite having inferior talent at his disposal, and had a higher completion percentage his first two seasons than Manning had in his first two years, and won his first playoff game some four years ahead of the pace set by Peyton Manning.  So if  Lawrence's numbers are better overall in his first two years than Manning's and his performance in the playoffs in terms of win production is ahead of the pace set by Manning, what's the basis for arguing Manning was better his first two years?  Is it possible that Trevor Lawrence was actually better his first two years than Mannins?  Why wouldn't you have been down on Manning, if so?

Please forgive me for not grasping these tacit nuances of your arguments earlier.  I am not always able to avail myself of the senior discounts at Denny's and other various establishments and I must have missed it.

To clarify confusion, I was speaking to the hype of Trevor Lawrence as a prospect coming out of Clemson, aswell as Luck/Manning as prospects. In terms of their numbers as NFL quarterbacks, this is something that's a bit hard to compare to one another. Peyton Manning's early career was during a time where WRs were not protected by a dubious amount of penalties and protections. In TODAYS game I stand by the fact that a supposid "elite" quarterback should be sitting somewhere within the 30-40 range in terms of touchdowns, With the rule changes and now with the addition of a 17th game especially. I do not view Trevor Lawrence as an ELITE quarterback at this current moment, from my viewpoint he's played a handful of games that can be considered elite performances, but that does not push him to that level just yet. Now I'm not saying he can't get there with improvement. 

When I made my evaluations of Lawrence, this was both before he was in the NFL and even before we thought we could draft him, he was extremely over hyped and he has a long way to go if he wants to live up to said hype. He is extremely gifted in terms of his physical abilities, he has a big arm he's a big guy who is also a lot faster than most guys of his stature. That said, he was far from a polished product at Clemson, he fell apart in the playoffs and while I know he never lost a regular season game in college.. there were more factors than just his individual play that lead to that feat. Travis ETN had one of the most prolific careers a RB could possibly have in college, He had NFL talent WRs such as Tee Higgins who if you watch any of Trevors Clemson tape you'd note was wide open almost every time the ball came his way... and they played poor competition for the most part. 


Last year I predicted Trevor to throw for 22 tds 15 INTs. In that same thread I said that this was my baseline to determine whether or not he would improve upon what was a disasterous first year or not, and he absolutely did improve in a lot of ways.. but a lot of the same issues we saw @ Clemson and in his rookie season still continued on throughout the season tho admitedly he did get better in a few areas which at least for me has been promising. 

However, my predictions for his TD/Turnover ratio was pretty on par i'd say.

22 TD 15 Ints was the Prediction
25 Tds 8 Ints 12 Fumbles was the actual result.


At the end of the day, I am much more optimistic today than I was at the same time last season. In his rookie season (albeit he had Urban Fired at coach) I saw the things that worried me pre-draft pop up much more often than I would have liked, and even for the first half of last season it seemed to continue on. 

His issues with air mailing passes over his WRs heads is still an issue, his tendency to throw interceptions that make absolutely no sense (ala. 2nd down, throws it directly over the middle 5 yards to a linebackers hands under 0 pressure and no WR/TE in the area) etc.

However, let's take a look at the positive side of Trevor Lawrence. One of my biggest worries about him coming out of Clemson was that he seemed to struggle big time when the pressure was on, a good example would be his final game in college against Fields and Ohio. When the games were close, and it was up to him to get them back into the game he struggled, he would force deep passes into double coverage on 1st and 2nd down, he tried to play hero ball when there wasn't a need for it (early in the game mind you) I had serious doubts about his ability to be a clutch player. 

But last season, after possibly the worst performance of his career in Denver he came out and lead a 17 point comeback against the Raiders and showed us he had it in him, and he continued doing so in the games against Dallas/Baltimore and ofcourse the Chargers playoff game. 


I'm not going to sit here and scream "HES ELITE" until he can show me a season or 2 of consistent play. But i'm also not going to sit here and tell you I don't think he has what it takes to be that guy. 


So let's end this where it started. The first thread I made about Trevor Lawrence the day after we drafted the guy, I'm cautiously optimistic. Infact i'm a lot more optimistic after what I saw from the latter half of this past season. But I still stand by what I said, he had and still has many flaws in his game. The question is will he overcome those flaws and be this teams salvation. 

I never called him a bust, I wanted us to draft him at 1.. We needed a QB and he was the only prospect in that draft that I felt had enough talent to potentially be our guy. But I did not think of him as a Luck/Manning type of prospect, those two guys were incredible in college. I'm not paying attention to their stats, I'm looking at how they played in the games how they handled certain situations and how they handled themselves when the game was on their shoulders. In college, Trevor played on a team that basically had the game won by halftime every week.. and a lot of the time it had more to do with Travis ETN being a game wrecker for that offense, and the fact that the teams they faced were not comparable in talent. 


So for one final time, I will say this. I stand by what I actually said, not the words put in my mouth by the other two people on this board. I never once called him a bust, I never said he couldn't be good. I only pointed out his flaws that I saw by watching literally every play he made at Clemson and when those issues reared their head during games, I posted about them in the game day threads as a response to the mods who told me I was wrong when I wasn't.

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CJB's two functioning brain cells

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

I called him a bust about 3/4's of the way through last season. I started with he was fixable but had to improve as the season went on. He didn't. So I called him a bust. But his last game and a half were good. Maybe he'll pull it together consistently.

On the plus side:

* A magic rocket arm

On the negative:

* Poor anticipation - waits for players to get open, relying on his rocket arm to make up time.
* Doesn't set his feet properly - relying on his magic arm to make the throw regardless.
* Flushes from the pocket when he should step up (which he suddenly started doing in the last game and a half)


I'll just bookmark this for posterity.

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CJB's two functioning brain cells

Good response, thank you for your contribution to this thread.

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CJB's two functioning brain cells

Good response, thank you for your contribution to this thread.

You were wrong. Deny and obfuscate all you want; you were wrong. And you made the rest of us miserable in the process. Well, except for the other two who agreed with you, who were also wrong.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

If this group plays well, given what we have stacking up @ the skill positions, I think this offense could be special!

I’m right there with you. I can’t remember this many legit offensive weapons since the 1999 season. 

We added Bigsby and Ridley to an offense that had a 4,000 yard passer, 1,000 yard receiver and a 1,000 yard rusher and a TE that broke the all time franchise single season receiving yards for a TE.

 
And don't sleep on Strange.   I think that he's going to get a lot of favorable matchups as teas roll coverage to Riddley and Engram.

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Good response, thank you for your contribution to this thread.

You were wrong. Deny and obfuscate all you want; you were wrong. And you made the rest of us miserable in the process. Well, except for the other two who agreed with you, who were also wrong.

Again, what was I wrong about? I pointed out flaws that he still has to this day, he's done nothing to assert himself as being a generational talent, that hype was over blown. 


WHAT WAS I WRONG ABOUT. 

Explain, doofus.

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You were wrong. Deny and obfuscate all you want; you were wrong. And you made the rest of us miserable in the process. Well, except for the other two who agreed with you, who were also wrong.

Again, what was I wrong about? I pointed out flaws that he still has to this day, he's done nothing to assert himself as being a generational talent, that hype was over blown. 


WHAT WAS I WRONG ABOUT. 

Explain, doofus.

You were wrong about Trevor Lawrence. It's been shown by repeated posts by several posters throughout the Dead Zone that you continue to deny. Manufacturing a narrative to walk back your intent and calling people names doesn't change anything, and the more you deny the more folks are just going to keep reminding you. I told you a month ago its not that you made a bad call, everyone does that; it's that you keep trying to say you really didn't, you were just misunderstood or akshully right. We know what you meant, you were very clear about it for a long time. And clearly wrong. Bullseye just ripped you apart on why the metric you used to say he was overhyped is flawed and yet here we are with you standing by your bad call (after you try to moderate it of course). You're this guy while we're everyone else.:



I know you're young, that's from the Major League movies. They're great but probably a bit sophisticated for you.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

ChrisJagBoy,

Just a few more questions...if you would be so kind.  We blue hairs have a hard time understanding at times.

2.  Peyton Manning, he of the NFL bloodlines and pedigree, didn't win his first playoff game despite  superior surrounding offensive talent until the 2003 season0his 5th in the league.  Strange, considering he made the playoffs in 1999, 2000, and 2002-three of his first five year.  However, Trevor Lawrence-he with many more flaws coming out than Manning, won his first playoff game in his first playoff start,,,which came in his second year.  How wass Trevor Lawrence able to win in the post season before Manning managed to do so?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but this was one of my favorite stats for early Peyton. Between his professional and collegiate failure in the postseason, I liked to call him Mr. October.

Good luck on getting answers.

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There's a couple of guys on the roster that we acquired last year who could be in the mix as well. Both Cole van Lanen and Blake Hance are a few years in to the League now and both can play the Guard spots. I think there might be more competition in camp than just Shatley and Bartch; it would be nice to see one of the jars come off the shelf and go on the field instead of into the trash can like usual.

you know how to get my blood pumping, flsg. Would love to see this happen!

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ChrisJagBoy,

Just a few more questions...if you would be so kind.  We blue hairs have a hard time understanding at times.

2.  Peyton Manning, he of the NFL bloodlines and pedigree, didn't win his first playoff game despite  superior surrounding offensive talent until the 2003 season0his 5th in the league.  Strange, considering he made the playoffs in 1999, 2000, and 2002-three of his first five year.  However, Trevor Lawrence-he with many more flaws coming out than Manning, won his first playoff game in his first playoff start,,,which came in his second year.  How wass Trevor Lawrence able to win in the post season before Manning managed to do so?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but this was one of my favorite stats for early Peyton. Between his professional and collegiate failure in the postseason, I liked to call him Mr. October.

Good luck on getting answers.

The answer continues to be "I didn't say what you copy pasta'd me saying I said but what I said in what I didn't say was right and you are too dumb and old to understand the right things I said I didn't say."

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There's a couple of guys on the roster that we acquired last year who could be in the mix as well. Both Cole van Lanen and Blake Hance are a few years in to the League now and both can play the Guard spots. I think there might be more competition in camp than just Shatley and Bartch; it would be nice to see one of the jars come off the shelf and go on the field instead of into the trash can like usual.

you know how to get my blood pumping, flsg. Would love to see this happen!

Me too, we so rarely have that guy who overachieves to become a good player. We got a few like Telvin in the bottom of the draft and really only James Robinson from the undrafted pool. It would be nice to pick up a couple off the pile who go from zero to solid starter for us.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

I called him a bust about 3/4's of the way through last season.  I started with he was fixable but had to improve as the season went on.  He didn't.  So I called him a bust.  But his last game and a half were good.  Maybe he'll pull it together consistently.

On the plus side:

* A magic rocket arm

On the negative:

* Poor anticipation - waits for players to get open, relying on his rocket arm to make up time.
* Doesn't set his feet properly - relying on his magic arm to make the throw regardless.
* Flushes from the pocket when he should step up (which he suddenly started doing in the last game and a half)


I'll just bookmark this for posterity.

you do that, chief.

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I know this wasn't directed at me, but this was one of my favorite stats for early Peyton. Between his professional and collegiate failure in the postseason, I liked to call him Mr. October.

Good luck on getting answers.

The answer continues to be "I didn't say what you copy pasta'd me saying I said but what I said in what I didn't say was right and you are too dumb and old to understand the right things I said I didn't say."

---

you know how to get my blood pumping, flsg. Would love to see this happen!

Me too, we so rarely have that guy who overachieves to become a good player. We got a few like Telvin in the bottom of the draft and really only James Robinson from the undrafted pool. It would be nice to pick up a couple off the pile who go from zero to solid starter for us.

Van Lanen was the Packers highest rated lineman in the Preseason last year.  I had high hopes for him last year.  I remember when Scherff got banged up and they put Lanen in on the first play he got destroyed and almost got Trev killed.  It was an eye opener for sure and they took him back out a play or 2 later.  I think it was just the rust and I feel though if he got more playing time he would of settled in.

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