I don't want to spend a 1 on a guy we could get for a 3 who we have to replace in two years anyway.

I read this all the time.  "You can find a RB in later rounds."  Yes, you can.  You can also find any other position in later rounds.  But if you want a great player, the odds are better if you don't let a bunch of them go off the board before you pick.  

I thought it was a great pick at the time.  I wanted Travis Etienne since I first saw him in college.  The thing I noticed when I first saw him was his acceleration.  What I did not know was how tough he is running between the tackles.

People want to die on this philosophical hill of "don't draft a RB until later in the draft" but when there's a great player, you have to bend that philosophy and that take the guy.

Yup, that goes for any position outside of punter and kickerand I'd still draft either of those in the late rounds if it's a huge need

---

[quote pid="1570385" dateline="1696849318"]

I read this all the time.  "You can find a RB in later rounds."  Yes, you can.  You can also find any other position in later rounds.  But if you want a great player, the odds are better if you don't let a bunch of them go off the board before you pick.  

I thought it was a great pick at the time.  I wanted Travis Etienne since I first saw him in college.  The thing I noticed when I first saw him was his acceleration.  What I did not know was how tough he is running between the tackles.

People want to die on this philosophical hill of "don't draft a RB until later in the draft" but when there's a great player, you have to bend that philosophy and that take the guy.

[/quote]

Yea, they have all kinds of hills they espouse. Most of which are only there just to make themselves look smart or as some kind of truth when they really can't think of support.  Since 2000 there have been 48  running back drafted in the 1st round. Many more in round 2.  My favorite and our big miss because he was a local guy, Derrick Henry.  I wanted him bad and we have paid for it.

---

A new broom always sweeps clean.

I don't want to spend a 1 on a guy we could get for a 3 who we have to replace in two years anyway.

I read this all the time.  "You can find a RB in later rounds."  Yes, you can.  You can also find any other position in later rounds.  But if you want a great player, the odds are better if you don't let a bunch of them go off the board before you pick.  

I thought it was a great pick at the time.  I wanted Travis Etienne since I first saw him in college.  The thing I noticed when I first saw him was his acceleration.  What I did not know was how tough he is running between the tackles.

Yes, but great running backs don't help bad teams become good.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

[quote pid="1570385" dateline="1696849318"]

I read this all the time.  "You can find a RB in later rounds."  Yes, you can.  You can also find any other position in later rounds.  But if you want a great player, the odds are better if you don't let a bunch of them go off the board before you pick.  

I thought it was a great pick at the time.  I wanted Travis Etienne since I first saw him in college.  The thing I noticed when I first saw him was his acceleration.  What I did not know was how tough he is running between the tackles.

People want to die on this philosophical hill of "don't draft a RB until later in the draft" but when there's a great player, you have to bend that philosophy and that take the guy.

Yea, they have all kinds of hills they espouse. Most of which are only there just to make themselves look smart or as some kind of truth when they really can't think of support.  Since 2000 there have been 48  running back drafted in the 1st round. Many more in round 2.  My favorite and our big miss because he was a local guy, Derrick Henry.  I wanted him bad and we have paid for it.
[/quote]

Reasons:

1. Running backs are the fastest players to end their careers, averaging a full season less on average than other positions.
2. Running backs are unlikely to improve the W/L record of a bad team. because even if the player is great by the time a team is good enough to take advantage of them they are gone because...
3. Running backs are unlikely to sign a second contract because...
4. Running backs are effectively interchangeable in good offenses as...
5. Most NFL teams have abandoned the Bell Cow back because Back by Committee is more effective which means...
6. Teams need more than one so the value of a 1st is less on a platooning player than a full time player like linemen or defensive back.

As a reminder, my position is that bad teams should not spend a 1st round pick on a running back. For better teams picking late in the first it's more likely a completed team taking a final piece not a bad one taking an early one. The best current example of this is the Chiefs who took CEH at the end of the 1st after winning a Super Bowl, won a Super Bowl last year with him on the bench, and now have a 7th rounder as their primary running back.

The case I present is validated in the following article that looks at recent 1st rounders, and the facts are pretty clear:

[font=Helvetica, sans-serif]"What seems to be the case is that if you already have an exceptional offense with Pro Bowl talent at multiple positions and a great offensive-minded head coach, a running back drafted in the first round can put together a pretty impressive career. However, there is nothing to suggest that these players are any more valuable than the players taken later and partnered with equivalent or even lesser talent, like Jonathan Taylor (2nd), Derrick Henry (2nd), David Johnson (3rd) or other yards-from-scrimmage leaders."[/font]

[font=Helvetica, sans-serif]https://www.windycitygridiron.com/2023/3...n-robinson[/font]

The simple fact is that Running Backs are not worth a first round pick.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

A RB in the 1st round will never be a good pick.

Luckily he turned into a good player, but it doesn't change the fact that you simply don't take RBs in the 1st round.

It was a damn good pick, it's no luck.  He was always an elite back.  He would likely be even better if he didn't miss is whole rookie year to an injury.  You were wrong on it being a bad pick and I'm glad we got him where we did.

....or if we had linemen that could rip open holes in the D consistently.

TOP got Etienne his yards today, that D was spent by the fourth.

---

It was a damn good pick, it's no luck.  He was always an elite back.  He would likely be even better if he didn't miss is whole rookie year to an injury.  You were wrong on it being a bad pick and I'm glad we got him where we did.

....or if we had linemen that could rip open holes in the D consistently.

TOP got Etienne his yards today, that D was spent by the fourth.

It's so nice to have our D play big in a big game. They absolutely wore out the Bills D by running Allen and crew off the field drive after drive all game long.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

It was a damn good pick, it's no luck.  He was always an elite back.  He would likely be even better if he didn't miss is whole rookie year to an injury.  You were wrong on it being a bad pick and I'm glad we got him where we did.

....or if we had linemen that could rip open holes in the D consistently.

TOP got Etienne his yards today, that D was spent by the fourth.

You can get linemen in later rounds.  

See how I did that?

---

I read this all the time.  "You can find a RB in later rounds."  Yes, you can.  You can also find any other position in later rounds.  But if you want a great player, the odds are better if you don't let a bunch of them go off the board before you pick.  

I thought it was a great pick at the time.  I wanted Travis Etienne since I first saw him in college.  The thing I noticed when I first saw him was his acceleration.  What I did not know was how tough he is running between the tackles.

Yes, but great running backs don't help bad teams become good.

What?   Lol.  All you have to do is look at the Etieene pick and you could go on and on.  Etienne absolutely helped our bad team become good even with a [BLEEP] oline

---

....or if we had linemen that could rip open holes in the D consistently.

TOP got Etienne his yards today, that D was spent by the fourth.

You can get linemen in later rounds.  

See how I did that?

Yup, you can do that for any position.

---

No it isn't lol.  It's a great pick if the one is a great back.  Etieene is proving the ones saying he was a bad pick were wrong.

---

One thing killing the Giants right now is them missing their 1st round RB

Happens more to running backs though as it's a highly attritional position

Why you don't want to make a running back the centrepiece of your offence

DING DING DING

---

Yes, but great running backs don't help bad teams become good.

What?   Lol.  All you have to do is look at the Etieene pick and you could go on and on.  Etienne absolutely helped our bad team become good even with a [BLEEP] oline

Dude

We have Trevor Lawrence, Calvin Ridley, Christian Kirk, Zay Jones and Evan Engram on that offense. 

This is not a "bad team" 
This is a team that is weak in the trenches on both sides of the ball but otherwise quite good. 

Etienne had an absolute monster game yesterday. My hat is off to the guy. I love that he's a Jag. Love it! 

Still wouldn't have spent that pick on him.

---

Yes, but great running backs don't help bad teams become good.

What?   Lol.  All you have to do is look at the Etieene pick and you could go on and on.  Etienne absolutely helped our bad team become good even with a [BLEEP] oline

Look, I can give you the information but I can't make you think.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

....or if we had linemen that could rip open holes in the D consistently.

TOP got Etienne his yards today, that D was spent by the fourth.

You can get linemen in later rounds.  

See how I did that?

/waves in Bartch and Fortner.
//glares in Allgaier and Achane

See how I did that?

---

Yes, but great running backs don't help bad teams become good.

What?   Lol.  All you have to do is look at the Etieene pick and you could go on and on.  Etienne absolutely helped our bad team become good even with a [BLEEP] oline

---

You can get linemen in later rounds.  

See how I did that?

Yup, you can do that for any position.

Actually, you can't do that for any position. Specifically great Centers and great Offensive Tackles are far and away more likely to come from 1st round picks. Regardless, the W/L result of choosing an RB high shows that great running backs do not in fact make great teams. For example, Christian McCaffery's only year leading the League in rushing resulted in the Panthers going 5-11. That isn't a single instance like that either, it's constant.

---

What?   Lol.  All you have to do is look at the Etieene pick and you could go on and on.  Etienne absolutely helped our bad team become good even with a [BLEEP] oline

Dude

We have Trevor Lawrence, Calvin Ridley, Christian Kirk, Zay Jones and Evan Engram on that offense. 

This is not a "bad team" 
This is a team that is weak in the trenches on both sides of the ball but otherwise quite good. 

Etienne had an absolute monster game yesterday. My hat is off to the guy. I love that he's a Jag. Love it! 

Still wouldn't have spent that pick on him.

How dare you see reality.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Rereading this thread is interesting, lot of great takes throughout. After watching every carry of his at Clemson, the biggest thing draft evaluators and NFL fans overlooked was his ability to bounce off and break tackles. His SO year and JR year at Clemson he led the entire country in broken tackles per attempt and yards after contact per carry both seasons. He wasn't 1st as a FR but still one of the top in the country. Not sure how his SR year went based on those metrics. I'm linking an article that talked about this prior to his last campaign. I read he broke 10 tackles on Sunday. Prior to last weekend he was listed as one of the leaders in the entire NFL in that category, he might be first now.

His contact balance is the best I've ever seen in a RB at the college level. Dabo said the same exact thing when he arrived on campus. How he can break so many tackles at his size defies physics. Combine that with his top tier acceleration he was probably my favorite player to watch ever at Clemson alongside CJ Spiller.

Regarding his speed, I see people mentioned he "only ran a 4.41." I would like to point out he was a definitely a 4.3 guy at Clemson, based off track times in HS (10.5), how fast he looked, and according to coaches who track times while he was in college. This is also backed by him beating Isaiah Simmons twice in head to head races who ran 4.39 at the Combine. He didn't run in the 4.3s at his pro day because of the weight gain to 215 pounds. He played at 184 (as a Fr) to 209 pounds at his heaviest. He added weight as that size won't cut it in the NFL for long. I would argue the small step lost in speed was worth the additional pounds to preserve his body. Go back and watch his FR HLs at Clemson when he was 25 pounds lighter and he could absolutely fly.

Hopefully the Jags keep investing in the OL. I feel like watching the Jags compared to other teams he doesn't have the run blocking most other teams have. Maybe that is wrong based on statistics though as I have not looked into it.
https://www.postandcourier.com/sports/cl...f80e2.html

---

Rereading this thread is interesting, lot of great takes throughout. After watching every carry of his at Clemson, the biggest thing draft evaluators and NFL fans overlooked was his ability to bounce off and break tackles. His SO year and JR year at Clemson he led the entire country in broken tackles per attempt and yards after contact per carry both seasons. He wasn't 1st as a FR but still one of the top in the country. Not sure how his SR year went based on those metrics. I'm linking an article that talked about this prior to his campaign. I read he broke 10 tackles on Sunday. Prior to last weekend he was listed as one of the leaders in the entire NFL in that category, he might be first now. 

His contact balance is the best I've ever seen in a RB at the college level. Dabo said the same exact thing when he arrived on campus. How he can break so many tackles at his size defies physics. Combine that with his top tier acceleration he was probably my favorite player to watch ever at Clemson alongside CJ Spiller.

Regarding his speed, I see people mentioned he "only ran a 4.41." I would like to point out he was a definitely a 4.3 guy at Clemson, based off track times in HS (10.5), how fast he looked, and according to coaches who track times while he was in college. This is also backed by him beating Isaiah Simmons twice in head to head races who ran 4.39 at the Combine. He didn't run in the 4.3s at his pro day because of the weight gain to 215 pounds. He played at 184 (as a Fr) to 209 pounds at his heaviest. He added weight as that size won't cut it in the NFL for long. I would argue the small step lost in speed was worth the additional pounds to preserve his body. Go back and watch his FR HLs at Clemson when he was 25 pounds lighter and he could absolutely fly.

Hopefully the Jags keep investing in the OL. I feel like watching the Jags compared to other teams he doesn't have the run blocking most other teams have. Maybe that is wrong based on statistics though as I have not looked into it.
https://www.postandcourier.com/sports/cl...f80e2.html

You are definitely correct about the run blocking.

It was bad last year and it is worse this year. He's playing well despite it. 

I can't imagine how explosive this offense would be with improved line play in both the run and pass games.

---

What?   Lol.  All you have to do is look at the Etieene pick and you could go on and on.  Etienne absolutely helped our bad team become good even with a [BLEEP] oline

Dude

We have Trevor Lawrence, Calvin Ridley, Christian Kirk, Zay Jones and Evan Engram on that offense. 

This is not a "bad team" 
This is a team that is weak in the trenches on both sides of the ball but otherwise quite good. 

Etienne had an absolute monster game yesterday. My hat is off to the guy. I love that he's a Jag. Love it! 

Still wouldn't have spent that pick on him.

Now we don't.  Talking about last year, we were coming off the season with the worst record in the league and the number 1 pick.  The success started last year, not right now.  Etienne was a huge part of our success on offense last year and a big part getting this thing turned around with his 1500 yards in his first season.  Who did you want at 25?

---

Dude

We have Trevor Lawrence, Calvin Ridley, Christian Kirk, Zay Jones and Evan Engram on that offense. 

This is not a "bad team" 
This is a team that is weak in the trenches on both sides of the ball but otherwise quite good. 

Etienne had an absolute monster game yesterday. My hat is off to the guy. I love that he's a Jag. Love it! 

Still wouldn't have spent that pick on him.

Now we don't.  Talking about last year, we were coming off the season with the worst record in the league and the number 1 pick.  The success started last year, not right now.  Etienne was a huge part of our success on offense last year and a big part getting this thing turned around with his 1500 yards in his first season.  Who did you want at 25?

I don't recall who I was hoping for at that pick - wasn't very into the draft that offseason due to work craziness - but two guards went shortly after him that are playing great football for their teams right now. That would have made more sense with the draft capital and our needs. Prolly could've traded down too. 

I don't feel any need to explain for the 600th time why I don't want to draft RBs early. We've been thru it too many times.

what do you mean by "now we don't" ??

---

Dude

We have Trevor Lawrence, Calvin Ridley, Christian Kirk, Zay Jones and Evan Engram on that offense. 

This is not a "bad team" 
This is a team that is weak in the trenches on both sides of the ball but otherwise quite good. 

Etienne had an absolute monster game yesterday. My hat is off to the guy. I love that he's a Jag. Love it! 

Still wouldn't have spent that pick on him.

Now we don't.  Talking about last year, we were coming off the season with the worst record in the league and the number 1 pick.  The success started last year, not right now.  Etienne was a huge part of our success on offense last year and a big part getting this thing turned around with his 1500 yards in his first season.  Who did you want at 25?

The success started with the drafting of TLaw and was completed with the hiring of Doug Pederson. Last year we added Kirk, Jones, Engram, Scherff, Foye, Fatukasi, Darious Williams, Arden Key (along with a recovered ETN), it was a huge and hugely expensive free agent class. But sure, it was all because ETN played, lol. As for the 2021 draft, ETN was going to be the 3rd down back for Urbsie, he wasn't even taking him to be the starter but to be the gadget guy. It's probably good for ETN that he did get hurt and not have to play for that [BLEEP] hole. I can't imagine how Meyer would've screwed him up if he was actually available and riding the bench in favor of Carlos Hyde.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Etienne has been a great player for us on offense. After his rookie season being derailed with that Lisfranc injury he's steadily showed speed, quickness, big game ability and explosiveness.

Regardless of philosophical views with the RB position. Nobody really jumps out at you after his selection towards the end of that night in that draft. Even on a day two. We ultimately did well in selecting Campbell and Little. Same with Cisco in RD3.

Outside of Amon-Ra St. Brown at WR, who was taken in the 4th RD. You cannot truly find a more impactful skill position player between his selection and that selection. It always circles back to all purpose yardage and points for me. Etienne has been providing a solid amount to this football team over the last two years.

As the line play improves? So will his.

---

"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

So here's the 2021 Draft...

https://www.espn.com/nfl/draft/rounds/_/...eason/2021

So you can look it all up and not take my word for it...

We had pick 25, where we took Elite-EN.

From pick 26 to pick 37, no O-Linemen was picked. So 11 other teams, after us skipped on picking a lineman. Pick 37 was the Eagles picking up Landon Dickerson. Turned out to be a good pick. BUT!!! He had just blown out his knee in the SEC Championship game that prior December!!! It was a risky pick. It paid off, but dude, it was not like teams were clamoring to get him.

The next O-Lineman drafted in 2021 was at 39 to the Bears. That guy has only taken 38 snaps this entire season. Dudes a bench bro. Just a guy. Can't even get into the starting lineup.

Next up? Liam Eichenburg at 42... Dude's also a back up. Terrible PFF grade and is riding the bench with only 94 snaps this season.

So guess who's next? Walker Little at 45. Do I need to say anymore?

Our holy mods are so wise. Except when they aren't.

Elite-EN was a great pick up at the perfect spot in that 2021 draft. And we still got, if not the best available Lineman outside of the top 24 picks, then the 2nd best lineman within that range of draft picks. (24-45)

---