This thread had 2 or 3 folks going on and on about lack of pre-snap motion

FWIW here are some numbers from around the league on percentage of plays with pre snap motion

KC - 19.1%
tinhorns - 18.2%
Jags - 17.4%
bungles 17.1%
cowboys 15.1%
bills 13.4%
bucs 12.4%
browns 12.4%
eagles 10%

5 playoff teams ran less motion than Jags and the AFCS division winner ran it within a 1% frequency of the Jags

*shrug*

Good to know it was motion that killed our season I guess

Now - super-extra-bonus-round question of the day for those claiming this changed from 2022 to 2023!

What percentage of plays did Jags run motion in 2022?

Going to guess and say probably about 15.5 - 16.0%. My reasoning is that Etienne had a better YPC average the previous season so they probably had less opportunities to increase that number as much as they did this most recent season.

---

"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

This thread had 2 or 3 folks going on and on about lack of pre-snap motion

FWIW here are some numbers from around the league on percentage of plays with pre snap motion

KC - 19.1%
tinhorns - 18.2%
Jags - 17.4%
bungles 17.1%
cowboys 15.1%
bills 13.4%
bucs 12.4%
browns 12.4%
eagles 10%

5 playoff teams ran less motion than Jags and the AFCS division winner ran it within a 1% frequency of the Jags

*shrug*

Good to know it was motion that killed our season I guess

Now - super-extra-bonus-round question of the day for those claiming this changed from 2022 to 2023!

What percentage of plays did Jags run motion in 2022?

Going to guess and say probably about 15.5 - 16.0%. My reasoning is that Etienne had a better YPC average the previous season so they probably had less opportunities to increase that number as much as they did this most recent season.

Jags used pre snap motion in 2022 at 17.0%
Jags used pre snap motion in 2023 at 17.4%

This giant disparity is obviously because Press Taylor is horrible and was calling a totally different offense that didn't use enough motion compared to when Doug called plays.

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Now that the season is over and the stats are rolling in here is yet ANOTHER way all of the Press Taylor overreaction cult were wrong as [BLEEP]:

We've done the whole "WhY dOn'T we UsE MotIoN anyMoRe??" fallacy

How about the "It'S AlwaYs ShoTGuN??" DouG CalLeD MoRe PlayS UndR CenTeR!! routine?

While I think all of us would love to see a line that will allow more run plays from under center and play action passes from under center -- anyone who concedes that our OL has sucked donkey balls the past two seasons understands why it has been limited, right? 

Nonetheless - for those who repeatedly insisted that we passed the ball from under center more in 2022 than 2023 OR that Doug's passing calls were better than Press' calls:

DOUG: 2022 passes from under center: 73 (17th in the league - with a mostly healthy QB)  
10.5 yards per attempt which was the third best YPA in the league 

PRESS: 2023 passes from under center: 47 (22nd in the league - with QB injured for 11 weeks) 
13.3 yards per attempt which was the best in the league

And how about Doug's called shotgun pass plays being more effective than the calls Press made? 

Doug Pederson play calls saw 511 shotgun pass attempts averaging 6.6 yards per play
Press Taylor play calls saw 517 shotgun pass attempts averaging 6.6 yards per play

LOL - exactly the same.

---

Now that the season is over and the stats are rolling in here is yet ANOTHER way all of the Press Taylor overreaction cult were wrong as [BLEEP]:

We've done the whole "WhY dOn'T we UsE MotIoN anyMoRe??" fallacy

How about the "It'S AlwaYs ShoTGuN??" DouG CalLeD MoRe PlayS UndR CenTeR!! routine?

While I think all of us would love to see a line that will allow more run plays from under center and play action passes from under center -- anyone who concedes that our OL has sucked donkey balls the past two seasons understands why it has been limited, right? 

Nonetheless - for those who repeatedly insisted that we passed the ball from under center more in 2022 than 2023 OR that Doug's passing calls were better than Press' calls:

DOUG: 2022 passes from under center: 73 (17th in the league - with a mostly healthy QB)  
10.5 yards per attempt which was the third best YPA in the league 

PRESS: 2023 passes from under center: 47 (22nd in the league - with QB injured for 11 weeks) 
13.3 yards per attempt which was the best in the league

And how about Doug's called shotgun pass plays being more effective than the calls Press made? 

Doug Pederson play calls saw 511 shotgun pass attempts averaging 6.6 yards per play
Press Taylor play calls saw 517 shotgun pass attempts averaging 6.6 yards per play

LOL - exactly the same.

You wouldn't happen to have the amount of runs/passes on 1st down this year vs last year would you? I swear they threw on 1st down more last year and they had more successful drives due to it. It kept them ahead of the chains.

This season it seemed like they were constantly in 2nd and 9-11 because of failed 1st down runs.

---

Now that the season is over and the stats are rolling in here is yet ANOTHER way all of the Press Taylor overreaction cult were wrong as [BLEEP]:

We've done the whole "WhY dOn'T we UsE MotIoN anyMoRe??" fallacy

How about the "It'S AlwaYs ShoTGuN??" DouG CalLeD MoRe PlayS UndR CenTeR!! routine?

While I think all of us would love to see a line that will allow more run plays from under center and play action passes from under center -- anyone who concedes that our OL has sucked donkey balls the past two seasons understands why it has been limited, right? 

Nonetheless - for those who repeatedly insisted that we passed the ball from under center more in 2022 than 2023 OR that Doug's passing calls were better than Press' calls:

DOUG: 2022 passes from under center: 73 (17th in the league - with a mostly healthy QB)  
10.5 yards per attempt which was the third best YPA in the league 

PRESS: 2023 passes from under center: 47 (22nd in the league - with QB injured for 11 weeks) 
13.3 yards per attempt which was the best in the league

And how about Doug's called shotgun pass plays being more effective than the calls Press made? 

Doug Pederson play calls saw 511 shotgun pass attempts averaging 6.6 yards per play
Press Taylor play calls saw 517 shotgun pass attempts averaging 6.6 yards per play

LOL - exactly the same.

You wouldn't happen to have the amount of runs/passes on 1st down this year vs last year would you? I swear they threw on 1st down more last year and they had more successful drives due to it. It kept them ahead of the chains.

This season it seemed like they were constantly in 2nd and 9-11 because of failed 1st down runs.

Again 

It was the same.

254 rushing attempts on first down in 2023
256 rushing attempts on first down in 2022

They also threw on first down MORE in 2023 by ~ 10 attempts

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You wouldn't happen to have the amount of runs/passes on 1st down this year vs last year would you? I swear they threw on 1st down more last year and they had more successful drives due to it. It kept them ahead of the chains.

This season it seemed like they were constantly in 2nd and 9-11 because of failed 1st down runs.

Again 

It was the same.

254 rushing attempts on first down in 2023
256 rushing attempts on first down in 2022

They also threw on first down MORE in 2023 by ~ 10 attempts

Fair. Thank you.

Guess the run game being so bad this year really made it stand out.

---

You wouldn't happen to have the amount of runs/passes on 1st down this year vs last year would you? I swear they threw on 1st down more last year and they had more successful drives due to it. It kept them ahead of the chains.

This season it seemed like they were constantly in 2nd and 9-11 because of failed 1st down runs.

Again 

It was the same.

254 rushing attempts on first down in 2023
256 rushing attempts on first down in 2022

They also threw on first down MORE in 2023 by ~ 10 attempts

This is cute and all but Doug was better calling plays at the right time to get the defense that they were facing off their zone. Thats the difference between Doug & Press. Press did not know when to dial the right calls at the right time, he had no knowledge of the teams he was facing and when to dial the right play on downs. That might be the difference between the two.

---

Again 

It was the same.

254 rushing attempts on first down in 2023
256 rushing attempts on first down in 2022

They also threw on first down MORE in 2023 by ~ 10 attempts

This is cute and all but Doug was better calling plays at the right time to get the defense that they were facing off their zone. Thats the difference between Doug & Press. Press did not know when to dial the right calls at the right time, he had no knowledge of the teams he was facing and when to dial the right play on downs. That might be the difference between the two.

Every single indicator says you're completely full of [BLEEP]

Press called runs from the same play book on just as many first downs as Doug did - with the same amount of pre snap motion - and the run game sucked out loud. Yet you are tying yourself in a pretzel to blame it on Press Taylor. 

It was the line, stupid. They regressed.

---

This is cute and all but Doug was better calling plays at the right time to get the defense that they were facing off their zone. Thats the difference between Doug & Press. Press did not know when to dial the right calls at the right time, he had no knowledge of the teams he was facing and when to dial the right play on downs. That might be the difference between the two.

Every single indicator says you're completely full of [BLEEP]

Press called runs from the same play book on just as many first downs as Doug did - with the same amount of pre snap motion - and the run game sucked out loud. Yet you are tying yourself in a pretzel to blame it on Press Taylor. 

It was the line, stupid. They regressed.

Sure keep telling yourself that, it starts with the QB - Trevor was suppose to take the next step and he was awfully bad this year.

---

This is cute and all but Doug was better calling plays at the right time to get the defense that they were facing off their zone. Thats the difference between Doug & Press. Press did not know when to dial the right calls at the right time, he had no knowledge of the teams he was facing and when to dial the right play on downs. That might be the difference between the two.

Every single indicator says you're completely full of [BLEEP]

Press called runs from the same play book on just as many first downs as Doug did - with the same amount of pre snap motion - and the run game sucked out loud. 

Ok? Do you have a point here?  They just reproduce the same scheme over and over and that is why the other teams have figured it out. We can all agree that this team was supposed to be better offensively than last year. The only change except the adding of Ridley is Press calling full time. He could not be the problem but considering the past, where Doug had won a SuperBowl and allegedly got fired over Press Taylor (Higher management didn't want him), I'm one of the believer that it he has a big part of responsabilities. Not all because guys still have to execute. And his use of Calvin Ridley WASNT definitely working and he kept doing the same thing, which is criminal. Also they didn't attack the middle, where Trevor is good at reading zone but struggled more against man coverage. Without looking it up or how many times they used the middle of the field is irrelevant, the relavant part is using it at the right time to catch the defense off guard....

If I see that stupid double reverse play to Ridley next year, I'm going to pull my hair out. It worked once this year, and after that defenses have sniffed it out every time. One was good for a 12 yard loss during a critical point in the game. It's a perfect encapsulation of how the offense has gone, do the same couple of things over and over again and pray it turns out differently this time. Thats Press Taylor all year for you. 

---

The point appears to be just a bit outside your ability to grasp it. I applaud NYC for his patience in dealing with you, it's clear that you, like our other trollies, will continue to deny simple, straightforward facts while they [BLEEP] slap you up side of your head.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Every single indicator says you're completely full of [BLEEP]

Press called runs from the same play book on just as many first downs as Doug did - with the same amount of pre snap motion - and the run game sucked out loud. 

Ok? Do you have a point here?  They just reproduce the same scheme over and over and that is why the other teams have figured it out. We can all agree that this team was supposed to be better offensively than last year. The only change except the adding of Ridley is Press calling full time. He could not be the problem but considering the past, where Doug had won a SuperBowl and allegedly got fired over Press Taylor (Higher management didn't want him), I'm one of the believer that it he has a big part of responsabilities. Not all because guys still have to execute. And his use of Calvin Ridley WASNT definitely working and he kept doing the same thing, which is criminal. Also they didn't attack the middle, where Trevor is good at reading zone but struggled more against man coverage. Without looking it up or how many times they used the middle of the field is irrelevant, the relavant part is using it at the right time to catch the defense off guard....

If I see that stupid double reverse play to Ridley next year, I'm going to pull my hair out. It worked once this year, and after that defenses have sniffed it out every time. One was good for a 12 yard loss during a critical point in the game. It's a perfect encapsulation of how the offense has gone, do the same couple of things over and over again and pray it turns out differently this time. Thats Press Taylor all year for you. 

This thread is older than your time here. 

I'm pointing out things that others have harped on in this thread before you started posting.

You've already been proven wrong about your assertions on why Doug left the Philly job so stop rehashing it.

---

And we never once ran a double reverse this entire season.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Ok? Do you have a point here?  They just reproduce the same scheme over and over and that is why the other teams have figured it out. We can all agree that this team was supposed to be better offensively than last year. The only change except the adding of Ridley is Press calling full time. He could not be the problem but considering the past, where Doug had won a SuperBowl and allegedly got fired over Press Taylor (Higher management didn't want him), I'm one of the believer that it he has a big part of responsabilities. Not all because guys still have to execute. And his use of Calvin Ridley WASNT definitely working and he kept doing the same thing, which is criminal. Also they didn't attack the middle, where Trevor is good at reading zone but struggled more against man coverage. Without looking it up or how many times they used the middle of the field is irrelevant, the relavant part is using it at the right time to catch the defense off guard....

If I see that stupid double reverse play to Ridley next year, I'm going to pull my hair out. It worked once this year, and after that defenses have sniffed it out every time. One was good for a 12 yard loss during a critical point in the game. It's a perfect encapsulation of how the offense has gone, do the same couple of things over and over again and pray it turns out differently this time. Thats Press Taylor all year for you. 

This thread is older than your time here. 

I'm pointing out things that others have harped on in this thread before you started posting.

You've already been proven wrong about your assertions on why Doug left the Philly job so stop rehashing it.

Same reason why Vrabel left Tennessee or got canned.

Big ego coaches break out of teams for similiar situations. Doug wanted to be the man and have his last word there.

Not hard to understand, genius.

---

Now that the season is over and the stats are rolling in here is yet ANOTHER way all of the Press Taylor overreaction cult were wrong as [BLEEP]:

We've done the whole "WhY dOn'T we UsE MotIoN anyMoRe??" fallacy

How about the "It'S AlwaYs ShoTGuN??" DouG CalLeD MoRe PlayS UndR CenTeR!! routine?

While I think all of us would love to see a line that will allow more run plays from under center and play action passes from under center -- anyone who concedes that our OL has sucked donkey balls the past two seasons understands why it has been limited, right? 

Nonetheless - for those who repeatedly insisted that we passed the ball from under center more in 2022 than 2023 OR that Doug's passing calls were better than Press' calls:

DOUG: 2022 passes from under center: 73 (17th in the league - with a mostly healthy QB)  
10.5 yards per attempt which was the third best YPA in the league 

PRESS: 2023 passes from under center: 47 (22nd in the league - with QB injured for 11 weeks) 
13.3 yards per attempt which was the best in the league

And how about Doug's called shotgun pass plays being more effective than the calls Press made? 

Doug Pederson play calls saw 511 shotgun pass attempts averaging 6.6 yards per play
Press Taylor play calls saw 517 shotgun pass attempts averaging 6.6 yards per play

LOL - exactly the same.

Adding to this  - another eerie similarity between Doug and Press play calls - 

Under center throws in 2022 equaled 738 yards
Under center throws in 2023 equaled 738 yards

Crazy

The play action aspect of Pederson's offense (included in these UC attempts) regardless of who is calling it has been really good. They just haven't had the line to do enough of it and this year they also didn't have the run game to compliment it. 

I really hope a better line in 2024 allows them to open this up. It requires a tick more time of protection. The YPA numbers are so much better when they do this and get away from the horizontal and mesh stuff.

---

And we never once ran a double reverse this entire season.

We had alot of reverse plays this year. One on top of my head was Agnew

---

Now that the season is over and the stats are rolling in here is yet ANOTHER way all of the Press Taylor overreaction cult were wrong as [BLEEP]:

We've done the whole "WhY dOn'T we UsE MotIoN anyMoRe??" fallacy

How about the "It'S AlwaYs ShoTGuN??" DouG CalLeD MoRe PlayS UndR CenTeR!! routine?

While I think all of us would love to see a line that will allow more run plays from under center and play action passes from under center -- anyone who concedes that our OL has sucked donkey balls the past two seasons understands why it has been limited, right? 

Nonetheless - for those who repeatedly insisted that we passed the ball from under center more in 2022 than 2023 OR that Doug's passing calls were better than Press' calls:

DOUG: 2022 passes from under center: 73 (17th in the league - with a mostly healthy QB)  
10.5 yards per attempt which was the third best YPA in the league 

PRESS: 2023 passes from under center: 47 (22nd in the league - with QB injured for 11 weeks) 
13.3 yards per attempt which was the best in the league

And how about Doug's called shotgun pass plays being more effective than the calls Press made? 

Doug Pederson play calls saw 511 shotgun pass attempts averaging 6.6 yards per play
Press Taylor play calls saw 517 shotgun pass attempts averaging 6.6 yards per play

LOL - exactly the same.

Adding to this  - another eerie similarity between Doug and Press play calls - 

Under center throws in 2022 equaled 738 yards
Under center throws in 2023 equaled 738 yards

Crazy

The play action aspect of Pederson's offense (included in these UC attempts) regardless of who is calling it has been really good. They just haven't had the line to do enough of it and this year they also didn't have the run game to compliment it. 

I really hope a better line in 2024 allows them to open this up. It requires a tick more time of protection. The YPA numbers are so much better when they do this and get away from the horizontal and mesh stuff.

All three are complimented by the run game. If they can't make the run respectable then it's just wave at the RB as they go by to the QB.

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And we never once ran a double reverse this entire season.

We had alot of reverse plays this year. One on top of my head was Agnew

Define "a lot", because I saw 6 over the weekend. Many teams use counters and end arounds along with stuff like the phins and chefs do with misdirection in the backfield, so to say that the Jags did it "a lot" is a statement without context.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Shipley mailbag on Pederson/Press playcalling:

Q: What is the biggest difference between Press calling plays and Doug calling plays?

A: Hmm. This is a good question and I am not sure there is a clear answer since the Jaguars had most of the same tendencies in 2023 that they had in 2022 -- they just didn't execute as well. Pederson gets the same label for being too cute at times, too, but it seems like people had short-term memory in that regard. I personally think Pederson does a better job of sticking with the running game.

[b]Q: Do you think Doug’s loyalty to Press could lead to their downfall next year like in his last year in Philly?[/b]

[b]A: [/b]If Doug Pederson doesn't work out in Jacksonville, I do not think it will be because of his loyalty to Press Taylor. His loyalty to Taylor isn't the reason Pederson witnessed his offense regress in terms of details in 2023, nor is it the reason the Jaguars are weak on both lines. Taylor has become a boogeyman of sorts for the Jaguars, but they have much deeper issues they need to work out.

---

Here's a post I made in 3-2022:

I mentioned the following in another thread: Hopefully Pederson can iron that out, and I think he has to be a success with the Jaguars.  My concern with Pederson is that he has to turn Lawrence into a Nick Foles type of QB.  A guy that can run his offense, but becomes very readable after a season or a few games for the NFL defenses.

Thought I would expand on the above, with a reference to the ?Tedford Factor.  Jeff Tedford QBs in college were taught a system that limited their ability to read the defense across the whole field post-snap, narrowing or eliminating their window to find open off-script receivers.  In college the QB system worked great, getting 5 Tedford QBs selected highly in the NFL draft, only to find that their ability to read the field in an NFL offense were lacking.  

This was my concern in the previous post, and something I thought was relevant to the Jags (having traded for Nick Foles.)  If Pederson has to continually simplify the offense to fit Trevor Lawrence's skill set (or lack there of) he may get some increases in production, but for a short time.  NFL defenses will be able to solve the pre-read play calling.  I would say that in the NFL off-script plays are a necessity, which is why QBs like Mahomes and Josh Allen are so successful.

The above post was made in terms of Trevor's inability to read the field if his first option is covered, and I think the bolded point can be applied to the playcalling debate.  If a play-call has the first option open, then Trevor certainly has all the talents to deliver the ball.  But if the defense covers the first option and you have a QB that can't progress through the remaining options quickly then your offense will be much more readable.

Having an OL that can't provide enough time certainly doesn't help matters, but elite QBs can pick up a defense via motion/line-up/and game tape to reorder the option list and shorten the pocket time needed.  Some of the best plays have a man/zone/blitz-beater built in, but it only works if your QB and WRs reads and execution are all on the same page.

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NYC4jags Wrote:
Can we leave the personal insults behind for a while and get back to some semblance of topic, gents?
Please, and thank you.

Shipley mailbag on Pederson/Press playcalling:

Q: What is the biggest difference between Press calling plays and Doug calling plays?

A: Hmm. This is a good question and I am not sure there is a clear answer since the Jaguars had most of the same tendencies in 2023 that they had in 2022 -- they just didn't execute as well. Pederson gets the same label for being too cute at times, too, but it seems like people had short-term memory in that regard. I personally think Pederson does a better job of sticking with the running game.

This offense did poorly execute. Especially earlier on during the season. Not sure why people continue to gloss over that fact as if they didn't see the drops in the endzone, the tip drills for INT's, and the fumbles by this receiving core. If ONE of those games went the other way, just ONE, we're probably hosting another home play off game this weekend.

---

"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."