The problem is people don't even understand what moderate or liberal mean any longer.

 

Compared to the rest of the world we're a raving psycho-ward of right leaning lunatics.

There is a clear delineation between left and right in the real world.  It's in the land of politics where the divisions are murky, and anyone who tries to steer the GOP back to where it should be is considered a right wing fanatic while people like 0bama who are really leftist radicals at their core are considered moderates by people such as yourself.  It's laughable. 

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

It's like having a discussion with TMD when he's dug into something.

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The problem comes when QE stops, you can't use pretend money to buy securities forever without consequences. 

 

All that happens when QE stops is that interest rates eventually go up because the money supply will come from investors rather than investment banks, but that's not unusual. Rates are historically low right now, but the real problem is that the demand for money is low, not because of inflation, but because of the economics of the economy being run backward. Everything that Reagan and Bush/Clinton implemented needs to be rescinded. Free trade needs to go, taxes need to be raised, and Taft-Hartley needs to be repealed.

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If they try to implement a consumption tax in addition to a production tax people would riot. I know I would at least.......

 

The 0bama administration has attempted to do this with some of their programs including the cap & trade tax they've been trying to implement.  They're mulling over a mileage tax where people are taxed for the miles they drive, and it's actually on the verge of being piloted in some areas of the country already.

 

You think people would revolt, but as we've seen repeatedly, the dumbing down of this country has people utterly clueless about what their government is doing, so there's little accountability.  The government does as it pleases, and the mind-numbed drones just go along with whatever rhetoric they're spoon fed. 

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

The 0bama administration has attempted to do this with some of their programs including the cap & trade tax they've been trying to implement.  They're mulling over a mileage tax where people are taxed for the miles they drive, and it's actually on the verge of being piloted in some areas of the country already.

 

You think people would revolt, but as we've seen repeatedly, the dumbing down of this country has people utterly clueless about what their government is doing, so there's little accountability.  The government does as it pleases, and the mind-numbed drones just go along with whatever rhetoric they're spoon fed. 

 

you're right about the mileage tax I even heard Clark Howard supporting it, very disappointing when I heard that. There's a breaking point, there's always a breaking point. 

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you're right about the mileage tax I even heard Clark Howard supporting it, very disappointing when I heard that. There's a breaking point, there's always a breaking point. 

 

Not really.  It's the old boiling pot vs. the frog thing.  If you throw a frog into a boiling pot of water, he'll jump out immediately.  If you put him in the pot then slowly heat the water up to a boil, he'll allow himself to be cooked alive.  The way they're doing things, it's a slow boil approach.  You're never going to get rid of the income tax, but you will start to see consumption taxes hitting you in the wallet in slow, almost imperceptible ways.  Nobody will complain until it's too late because it's an incremental approach. 

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

All that happens when QE stops is that interest rates eventually go up because the money supply will come from investors rather than investment banks, but that's not unusual. Rates are historically low right now, but the real problem is that the demand for money is low, not because of inflation, but because of the economics of the economy being run backward. Everything that Reagan and Bush/Clinton implemented needs to be rescinded. Free trade needs to go, taxes need to be raised, and Taft-Hartley needs to be repealed.

At least we (individuals, corps and the govt) got the opportunity to refinance our debt at historically low rates and enjoy a phenomenal run in the equity mkts.  However, that too will come to a painful (though not permanent) end. 

As for the economy, GDP growth is already low and slow as we taper off the most aggressive monetary policy in history. But, if you're prepared for multiple quarters of negative GDP growth and all that goes along with an extended recession, then your fiscal plan is awesome. 

 

We can have a lot of fun donning tin foil hats and discussing what the social and political landscape of the US will look if that happens. 

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Kaishakunin for hire.

* (disclaimer) If you think I'm serious, hit yourself in the face w/ a hammer.

 

Multiple European nations have proven you don't need to race to the bottom in order to "succeed".

 

The real keys to national wealth are high tax rates, high social welfare spending, especially at the collegiate level, and worker representation.

 

The last one is really key. A good example of this is Germany, where any corporation with 500 or more people must have 50% labor/union representation in its corporate board.

 

They are successful because executives don't just issue edict from up on high, they actually have to work with the people that compose their company, and that keeps the ship righted.

 

Are you serious?

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

Multiple European nations have proven you don't need to race to the bottom in order to "succeed".

 

The real keys to national wealth are high tax rates, high social welfare spending, especially at the collegiate level, and worker representation.

 

The last one is really key. A good example of this is Germany, where any corporation with 500 or more people must have 50% labor/union representation in its corporate board.

 

They are successful because executives don't just issue edict from up on high, they actually have to work with the people that compose their company, and that keeps the ship righted.

WOW...

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Can you be specific? I've enjoyed this thread and talking with oklahomie we have different opions on what would stimulate the economy and how to approach the debt but I don't recall mud slinging?

 

How about this sort of thing? 

 

There is a clear delineation between left and right in the real world.  It's in the land of politics where the divisions are murky, and anyone who tries to steer the GOP back to where it should be is considered a right wing fanatic while people like 0bama who are really leftist radicals at their core are considered moderates by people such as yourself.  It's laughable. 

 

The politics threads are full of it. Pure mud slinging lunacy straight out of the politics of division playbook.

 

Obama a 'radical leftist'? My goodness, how little understanding of history does someone have to have to call Obama to a 'radical leftist'? Yet because people are so blinded by this left vs right claptrap they believe truly ridiculous things like this that they heard on the talk radio station that supports what they already think.

 

The no 1 aim of democracy is to get elected, forget morals or ideals, get elected and stay elected, that's the meal ticket and its the elephant (no pun intended) in the room everyone ignores. In a divided country, that means being the most centrist and and denouncing your opponents as right or left wing lunatics using TV friendly soundbites and thus winning small number of voters who are not already pre-programed to vote how their parents voted. In simple terms if you are seen as too far left, you lose, see Gore. Too far right, you lose, see McCain. That anyone would think any serious political candidate wants to bring any ideology into office is crazy, yet people still throw these ideologies around like they are backed by anyone in power or they mean something concrete.

 

The fact that you two have talked about some economic theories that goes over most people's heads and subject to worldwide factors and are not controllable by national governments does not change the fact that American politics these day is just rich men who have never done a day's work other than maybe an 'advisory' job on daddies company, backed by their rich friends shouting lies at each other. Its the same with any 2 party state. There is no room whatsoever for veering left and right or for ideology they are just abstract terms which have no meaning whatsoever outside of a college political history class. Despite this, it's what people focus on.

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Just to be different, Bortles.

The no 1 aim of democracy is to get elected, forget morals or ideals, get elected and stay elected, that's the meal ticket and its the elephant (no pun intended) in the room everyone ignores. In a divided country, that means being the most centrist and and denouncing your opponents as right or left wing lunatics using TV friendly soundbites and thus winning small number of voters who are not already pre-programed to vote how their parents voted. In simple terms if you are seen as too far left, you lose, see Gore. Too far right, you lose, see McCain. That anyone would think any serious political candidate wants to bring any ideology into office is crazy, yet people still throw these ideologies around like they are backed by anyone in power or they mean something concrete.

Just remember that America was founded as a Constitutional Republic and NOT a Democracy. Huge difference right there. The Founding Fathers hated the idea of a Democracy because history has shown that they are unstable, and it leads to division between the minority and the majority where the minority opinion is not protected, and where a Republic defends the right of the minority, the Democracy does not. And this is what leads to "Mob Rule".

 

 

Ancient Athens during pre-Roman times, Russia in the 1990's, Iraq and Afghanistan in the 2000's, and currently Libya and Ukraine, are all perfect examples showing how flawed a system Democracy really is.

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How about this sort of thing?




The politics threads are full of it. Pure mud slinging lunacy straight out of the politics of division playbook.


Obama a 'radical leftist'? My goodness, how little understanding of history does someone have to have to call Obama to a 'radical leftist'? Yet because people are so blinded by this left vs right claptrap they believe truly ridiculous things like this that they heard on the talk radio station that supports what they already think.


The no 1 aim of democracy is to get elected, forget morals or ideals, get elected and stay elected, that's the meal ticket and its the elephant (no pun intended) in the room everyone ignores. In a divided country, that means being the most centrist and and denouncing your opponents as right or left wing lunatics using TV friendly soundbites and thus winning small number of voters who are not already pre-programed to vote how their parents voted. In simple terms if you are seen as too far left, you lose, see Gore. Too far right, you lose, see McCain. That anyone would think any serious political candidate wants to bring any ideology into office is crazy, yet people still throw these ideologies around like they are backed by anyone in power or they mean something concrete.


The fact that you two have talked about some economic theories that goes over most people's heads and subject to worldwide factors and are not controllable by national governments does not change the fact that American politics these day is just rich men who have never done a day's work other than maybe an 'advisory' job on daddies company, backed by their rich friends shouting lies at each other. Its the same with any 2 party state. There is no room whatsoever for veering left and right or for ideology they are just abstract terms which have no meaning whatsoever outside of a college political history class. Despite this, it's what people focus on.

You don't see 0bama as a leftist, and you think McCain is too far to the right?


That pretty much makes my point for me right there.


I don't need talk radio sound bites to formulate a thought. All I need to do is read the books 0bama allegedly wrote to know where his political allegiances lie. You say I'm ignorant to the history, which is laughable. I'm a student of history who isn't blinded by talking points. You can think what you want about 0bama the centrist. Read his books. Look at who he's associated with throughout his life. Look at his own admissions. He's a radical leftist. He's an anti-colonialist. He's a student of Cloward & Piven. He is a self admitted follower of Saul Alinski. Do the research.

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

You don't see 0bama as a leftist, and you think McCain is too far to the right?


That pretty much makes my point for me right there.


I don't need talk radio sound bites to formulate a thought. All I need to do is read the books 0bama allegedly wrote to know where his political allegiances lie. You say I'm ignorant to the history, which is laughable. I'm a student of history who isn't blinded by talking points. You can think what you want about 0bama the centrist. Read his books. Look at who he's associated with throughout his life. Look at his own admissions. He's a radical leftist. He's an anti-colonialist. He's a student of Cloward & Piven. He is a self admitted follower of Saul Alinski. Do the research.

 

But Cloward & Piven and Saul Alinsky are all in the center.  </sarcasm>

 

At least that's what most leftists want you to believe.

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

But Cloward & Piven and Saul Alinsky are all in the center. </sarcasm>


At least that's what most leftists want you to believe.

Yeah, they're right there with Frank Marshall Davis, Bill Ayers, and his communist grandparents as the Mt. Rushmore for the modern centrist movement as defined by 0bama. All have served as his mentors along with his super conservative mother. /sarcasm

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

But Cloward & Piven and Saul Alinsky are all in the center.  </sarcasm>

 

At least that's what most leftists want you to believe.

 

Rules for Radicals is a good book, by the way.

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Rules for Radicals is a good book, by the way.

Sure, if you're one of those new centrists.

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Sure, if you're one of those new centrists.

 

To know the enemy you must study the enemy. 

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To know the enemy you must study the enemy. 

 

The Art of War?

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The Art of War?

 

+1 for you.

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+1 for you.

Technically the full quote is:

 

"If you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle."

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