So you can't cite any respectable scientific study that actually proves that abstinence education doesn't work.  Don't put it on me to cite sources, you are the one that said it.  Prove it.

 

I'm speaking about life and how I've lived it and know it.

 

How many single mothers under the age of 20 were there in say 1973 as compared to now?  We'll use statistics from 2013.  Has the number gone up or down?

 

Next look at the same statistics, but use the years say 1953 to 1973.

 

What is the difference?

 

I'll tell you one thing.  It used to be a "stigma" for a girl under the age of 20 to become pregnant out of wedlock.  What is it now?  Where are the "fathers" in these cases?

 

Many stigmas are based on practicality.  People learned long ago that raising a child as a single parent is not good for the child or parent.  Social services have become their own worst enemy by becoming unquestioning providers and replacing fathers.  Now jails and prisons are full of the results.  Before anyone pounces let me state that I think we should be proud as a country to offer safety nets to those in need.  Unfortunately too many are now using the safety nets as hammocks to continue the vicious cycle of government dependence that stretches for generations.  Think about that.  My solution?  Offer government assistance under the same conditions that family allowances are paid to the military.  Regardless of whether a service member has only a spouse, or a spouse and five children (raises hand), they receive the same allowance.  

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I was taught abstinence all my life too.  Then I got my first girlfriend... and that went out the window pretty quickly. It's admirable, but difficult.  My wife and I have 5 daughters (triplets and twins) and I fear the day they turn 16.  But I want them to know to be safe, and that I'll love them no matter what happens.  (I also want their boyfriends to know that I have an uncle who has more than enough guns for me to borrow one if I ever need to, and I've watched enough CSI to know how to get away with murder >_>)


That gives me an idea for a bumper sticker actually...

"As long as father's have daughters, it will be legal to own a shotgun."

Just do what my dad did to all my dates...tell them you have no problem going back to jail. :thumbsup:




And no...to my my knowledge he's never been in jail, but it sure scared the guys I would date!!

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What in the Wide Wide World of Sports is agoin' on here???

I have one daughter ( I lose sleep over it now) and three sons. I'm not sure how I'll approach the subject.With my Sons I'm going to encourage them to wait for marriage, I'll be open about how me not waiting made things very difficult (having kids so young) and try not to create an easy access for them to be active at a young age. 

 

My Daughter well I'm that uncle your kids has with plenty of guns. I think for girls its important for them to see their Father treat their Mother with respect and love, I read a book a long time ago can't remember what its called but the psychologist talked about how Daughters wage their self worth based upon how they see their Fathers treat their Mothers. It was a sobering thought and REALLY made me evaluate how I treated my Wife. It's my hope that by setting as good of an example as I can that my Daughter will have enough self esteem and respect for herself to not given in to push teenage boys. 

 

I've always got the shotgun as backup........

Why should you teach any of your children differently? Teaching the boys to wait because it was a hard life for you, but teaching your daughter that it's a character flaw seems a little wrong to me. Boys can't be victims of low self esteem and a lack of self respect? Girls can't have sex just because it feels good? Seems like both lessons would be good for all involved.


Teaching your daughter to have self esteem and to respect herself is wonderful, but hormones work on girls just as much as boys. Not every girl that's having sex is doing so because they lack either of those two virtues.

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What in the Wide Wide World of Sports is agoin' on here???

My 15-year-old daughter went on her first date last night.  I didn't have a talk with her because, hopefully, I've inculcated the proper values in her to know when to set boundaries.  She's the youngest and her older siblings turned out well so I'm not worried...too much.  

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My 15-year-old daughter went on her first date last night.  I didn't have a talk with her because, hopefully, I've inculcated the proper values in her to know when to set boundaries.  She's the youngest and her older siblings turned out well so I'm not worried...too much.

Being a parent is so stressful!! Lol

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What in the Wide Wide World of Sports is agoin' on here???

Being a parent is so stressful!! Lol

 

Immensely.  It wasn't too many years ago the thought of an empty nest almost sent me into a panic.  Now I can't wait to get rid of the last two.

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Just do what my dad did to all my dates...tell them you have no problem going back to jail. :thumbsup:




And no...to my my knowledge he's never been in jail, but it sure scared the guys I would date!!

 

I'll at the very least take from the Keith Mars book of Parenting: Insist on meeting my daughter's dates.

 

I think I've impressed on my girls (at least the three that are old enough) that they can come to me or their mother with anything.  I hope when they get old enough to date, they still feel that way.   Sometimes I worry that we're a bit lenient.  Then again, they're great kids.  

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I was wrong about Trent Baalke. 

So you can't cite any respectable scientific study that actually proves that abstinence education doesn't work.  Don't put it on me to cite sources, you are the one that said it.  Prove it.

 

I'm speaking about life and how I've lived it and know it.

 

How many single mothers under the age of 20 were there in say 1973 as compared to now?  We'll use statistics from 2013.  Has the number gone up or down?

 

Next look at the same statistics, but use the years say 1953 to 1973.

 

What is the difference?

 

I'll tell you one thing.  It used to be a "stigma" for a girl under the age of 20 to become pregnant out of wedlock.  What is it now?  Where are the "fathers" in these cases?

 

 

Nobody is saying that abstinence is THE answer, but it's a good start.

 

It all comes down to personal responsibility.  I too was taught abstinence my whole life, and yes, as a young teenager I did "explore" and do otherwise.  The point is, I had some knowledge and responsibility.  I can remember being a young kid and going into the store to buy condoms.  I also remember my then girlfriend and I saving up the money for her to get birth control.

 

The point is, we didn't wait on the government to provide for us.  We both felt that if we were "mature" enough to have sex then we were "mature" enough to be responsible about it.  ytraM is right about one thing.  In this day and age any "woman" can avoid becoming pregnant if she wants to.  The same can be said regarding any "man" avoiding becoming a "father" if he really wants to.

 

 

Maybe I'm still hungover, but you're asking for proof that abstinence education doesn't always work, then you turn around and say you were taught abstinence and yet you didn't abstain as a young teen.

 

I agree that it all boils down to personal responsibility. It's imperative that people understand how to protect themselves and that there are a variety of ways to be safe about having sex. I'm fine with abstinence being one facet of sex education, but it should never be the only option presented. 

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On Wisconsin.

Why should you teach any of your children differently? Teaching the boys to wait because it was a hard life for you, but teaching your daughter that it's a character flaw seems a little wrong to me. Boys can't be victims of low self esteem and a lack of self respect? Girls can't have sex just because it feels good? Seems like both lessons would be good for all involved.


Teaching your daughter to have self esteem and to respect herself is wonderful, but hormones work on girls just as much as boys. Not every girl that's having sex is doing so because they lack either of those two virtues.

 

good point hadn't thought about it that way.

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good point hadn't thought about it that way.

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What in the Wide Wide World of Sports is agoin' on here???

Here are two scenarios to consider, which really should make the legality of abortion come into question.

 

Scenario 1 - A woman (let's call her Jane) is murdered. Jane is 11 weeks pregnant. Her killer (let's call him Terrence) is caught and arrested. Terrence is charged with 2 counts of capital murder. He will be tried, and will be eligible for the death penalty. Count one is for killing Jane. Count two is for killing Jane's unborn child.

 

Scenario 2 - Jane was never murdered. She does however, go to have an abortion. Abortion is performed, and now Jane is no longer pregnant.

 

In both scenarios, the unborn child does not survive. In scenario 1, the result is a murder charge. In scenario 2, the result is, well nothing because killing the unborn child was legal in scenario 2.

 

So, what's the difference?

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What lies behind us, and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.







 

If you kill me, you get charged with murder.

If I kill myself, the end result is the same (I'm dead), but I'm not charged with murder.

 

 

Not every scenario is transitive property applicable and it's a pretty elementary angle to take.

If you were responding to me, that doesn't come close to scenario 2.

 

Jane didn't kill Jane. Jane killed fetus.

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What lies behind us, and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.







 

Also, Dakota, are you implying that you think the mother should be charged with murder? If so, at what stage in the pregnancy should this charge be administered? Conception? 2nd Trimester? 3rd Trimester?

I didn't imply anything. I asked what the difference was.

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What lies behind us, and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.







 

Here are two scenarios to consider, which really should make the legality of abortion come into question.

 

Scenario 1 - A woman (let's call her Jane) is murdered. Jane is 11 weeks pregnant. Her killer (let's call him Terrence) is caught and arrested. Terrence is charged with 2 counts of capital murder. He will be tried, and will be eligible for the death penalty. Count one is for killing Jane. Count two is for killing Jane's unborn child.

 

Scenario 2 - Jane was never murdered. She does however, go to have an abortion. Abortion is performed, and now Jane is no longer pregnant.

 

In both scenarios, the unborn child does not survive. In scenario 1, the result is a murder charge. In scenario 2, the result is, well nothing because killing the unborn child was legal in scenario 2.

 

So, what's the difference?

 

Only the expectant mother gets to decide if the baby dies, anyone else is considered a murderer. That's the difference.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

You can't kill a fetus. A fetus isn't alive. When we discuss miscarriages and fetal demise in the medical field, we NEVER use the terms died/killed/dead.

Then how does someone get charged with murder like scenario 1?

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What lies behind us, and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.







 

You can't kill a fetus. A fetus isn't alive. When we discuss miscarriages and fetal demise in the medical field, we NEVER use the terms died/killed/dead.

 

In your experience. In my personal experience with miscarriage the doctor said "I'm sorry, we can't find the heartbeat and your baby has died."

 

Edit: And I also work in the medical field and know that your experience is hardly universal.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Ok, well I'm asking you. What do you think the penalty should be for a woman having an abortion? And at what stage of the pregnancy should that penalty be administered?

I am not sure that I, or anyone for that matter, knows.

 

I am merely pointing out that someone can get charged for murder for doing the same thing that someone else can do legally.

 

Where I come from, that's called a real problem.

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What lies behind us, and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.







 

What do you do in the medical field? If you deal with viable and non-viable pregnancies more than I do, I'll concede the point.

 

I work on the finance side, so I concede your patient care exerience is probably more direct, but my work with the office staff is regular too. What I contest is that your particular experience with terminology is universal when I know from both personal and professional experience that it's not that way.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Just for a laugh, These people are signing a petition to legalize fourth trimester abortion. It's not any statement other that there are a lot of really dumb people out there. Fourth trimester would imply post birth. It makes you laugh, and cry all at once.

 

http://youtu.be/4v8--9R0I2Q?t=20s

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What lies behind us, and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.







 

Just for a laugh, These people are signing a petition to legalize fourth trimester abortion. It's not any statement other that there are a lot of really dumb people out there. Fourth trimester would imply post birth. It makes you laugh, and cry all at once.

 

http://youtu.be/4v8--9R0I2Q?t=20s

 

Several world renown medical ethicists support post birth termination in several cases based on "Quality of life" factors.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato