That's such an easy response. The argument is that they're killing someone else's body. In the same way that children can't defend themselves, those that oppose abortion feel like they're doing the same thing. 

 

It's easy because it's obvious, and your response is no less easy. It's still a bunch of men, whose sole contribution to a pregnancy is a few moments of pleasure, debating if a woman has the right to decide what to do with the organism growing in HER body. I'm not saying men can have no opinion, but a woman's far outweighs a man's.

---

If something can corrupt you, you're corrupted already.
- Bob Marley


 

It's easy because it's obvious, and your response is no less easy. It's still a bunch of men, whose sole contribution to a pregnancy is a few moments of pleasure, debating if a woman has the right to decide what to do with the organism growing in HER body. I'm not saying men can have no opinion, but a woman's far outweighs a man's.

 

... and you're a man debating who has the right to talk about a woman's body. What's your point?

 

I suppose that we should concede the point to women, and they'll have the only say on the matter. While we're at it, we'll concede all male-related issues to men only. What do you think the role of a male is during pregnancy? You don't think he has a right to the child? You don't think that a lot of men take care of their pregnant wives / girlfriends during pregnancy? It's a weak argument. 

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Lol... no, it's not just "opinion". These aren't blogs, people. I'm not going to go through the circular arguments with you guys. I've read a lot of medical literature on pre-natal beings and they are repeatedly called fetuses, not living children. Your religion might disagree with that, and you're entitled to your opinion, but my sources a lot more credible than anything you guys are hypothesizing.

 

 

Also, Meriam-Webster defines death as:

"the irreversible cessation of all vital functions especially as indicated by permanent stoppage of the heart, respiration, and brain activity". A fetus doesn't even start to practice breathing until the 3rd trimester. A fetus does not actually breathe (respiration) until birth.

 

"All vital functions". You have heart and brain activity in the first trimester. Even without breathing, he's still alive. 

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... and you're a man debating who has the right to talk about a woman's body. What's your point?

 

I suppose that we should concede the point to women, and they'll have the only say on the matter. While we're at it, we'll concede all male-related issues to men only. What do you think the role of a male is during pregnancy? You don't think he has a right to the child? You don't think that a lot of men take care of their pregnant wives / girlfriends during pregnancy? It's a weak argument. 

 

You're talking extremes, not me. I did not say men have no input, but in the end it's the woman who must nurture the child. It's her body that undergoes drastic changes. It's the woman that endures the pain (and possible damage to her body or even death)  of child birth. Compare that to, what, a man attending LaMaze classes with her? Sure, a lot of men take care of the mother of their child, but that's after the decision to keep the child has been made. What about the large number of men who don't? In the end, the overwhelming portion of the responsibility for the baby is the woman's.

---

If something can corrupt you, you're corrupted already.
- Bob Marley


 

"All vital functions". You have heart and brain activity in the first trimester. Even without breathing, he's still alive. 

 

Interesting..."he's" still alive. Freudian slip?

 

I'm kidding, of course.

---

If something can corrupt you, you're corrupted already.
- Bob Marley


 

You're talking extremes, not me. I did not say men have no input, but in the end it's the woman who must nurture the child. It's her body that undergoes drastic changes. It's the woman that endures the pain (and possible damage to her body or even death)  of child birth. Compare that to, what, a man attending LaMaze classes with her? Sure, a lot of men take care of the mother of their child, but that's after the decision to keep the child has been made. What about the large number of men who don't? In the end, the overwhelming portion of the responsibility for the baby is the woman's.

 

While you say that you're OK with men having opinions, if your opinion is like anything like those that share your's, then I'm reluctant to believe you. The things you say would suggest otherwise. 

 

Again, you're a man with an opinion on who has the right to talk about a woman's body. You don't see the hypocrisy there?

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"All vital functions". You have heart and brain activity in the first trimester. Even without breathing, he's still alive. 

 

You're entitled to your opinion.

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You're entitled to your opinion.

 

By the definition you used, and likely those of the experts you provided, the fetus would still be alive when aborted. Did these experts use the common definition of death, or did they define their own terms? 

 

My point is that, if you're simply OK with aborting a living person, then my argument is irrelevant to you. If you're OK with aborting it because you don't believe it's a living entity, then I think you're argument is flawed.

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By the definition you used, and likely those of the experts you provided, the fetus would still be alive when aborted. Did these experts use the common definition of death, or did they define their own terms? 

 

My point is that, if you're simply OK with aborting a living person, then my argument is irrelevant to you. If you're OK with aborting it because you don't believe it's a living entity, then I think you're argument is flawed.

 

I've had this argument several times on this forum already. It is circular and a huge waste of time because we disagree and neither of us are going to change our opinion. I do not believe that a fetus is living. I believe a fetus becomes a child and alive at birth. If you want to say that all of the medical literature I've studied is wrong, that is your prerogative.

 

I think you are misinterpreting the definition. I'm reading the definition as death being the stopping of heart, brain, and breathing of a being that once had a heart beat, had brain function, and breathed. A fetus does not breathe, therefor only 2 of those 3 things have been stopped. You can't stop something that never started.

 

 

Regardless, this is a waste of our time. You're not changing your opinion. I'm not changing my opinion or what I've learned in my profession that deals directly with diagnosing viable and non-viable pregnancies. If the next time I reported my preliminary reading to a doctor, I said "the baby is dead"... I would get my ear chewed off about how:

1. It isn't a baby.

2. It wasn't alive so it isn't "dead".

 

I'm not going to tell these doctors "well, JagsNGeorgia says your arguments is flawed". Instead, I'll take their word and the word of what I've learned.

 

 

I'll say again: you are entitled to your opinion. Rather that wasting either of our time, just agree to disagree.

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I've had this argument several times on this forum already. It is circular and a huge waste of time because we disagree and neither of us are going to change our opinion. I do not believe that a fetus is living. I believe a fetus becomes a child and alive at birth. If you want to say that all of the medical literature I've studied is wrong, that is your prerogative.

 

I think you are misinterpreting the definition. I'm reading the definition as death being the stopping of heart, brain, and breathing of a being that once had a heart beat, had brain function, and breathed. A fetus does not breathe, therefor only 2 of those 3 things have been stopped. You can't stop something that never started.

 

 

Regardless, this is a waste of our time. You're not changing your opinion. I'm not changing my opinion or what I've learned in my profession that deals directly with diagnosing viable and non-viable pregnancies. If the next time I reported my preliminary reading to a doctor, I said "the baby is dead"... I would get my ear chewed off about how:

1. It isn't a baby.

2. It wasn't alive so it isn't "dead".

 

I'm not going to tell these doctors "well, JagsNGeorgia says your arguments is flawed". Instead, I'll take their word and the word of what I've learned.

 

 

I'll say again: you are entitled to your opinion. Rather that wasting either of our time, just agree to disagree.

Babies, or "Fetuses" actually have heartbeats while in the womb. This is simple common sense.

 

 

I learned from my Latin teacher once that people who say: "Agree to disagree" are being stupid. The point of a civilized discussion or debate is to talk about two opposing views and than come together to form a higher understanding.

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Oh really? Being a diagnostic medical sonographer, I had no idea that fetuses had heartbeats.


Try reading the thread, bud.

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And how come what you learned from your Latin teachers hold weight but what I learned from my OB/GYN professors and doctors don't hold any weight?


Not allowing people to hold different opinions is utterly stupid.

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While you say that you're OK with men having opinions, if your opinion is like anything like those that share your's, then I'm reluctant to believe you. The things you say would suggest otherwise. 

 

Again, you're a man with an opinion on who has the right to talk about a woman's body. You don't see the hypocrisy there?

 

Look at the post that started this discussion between you and me. I merely pointed out that we have a bunch of men discussing this topic, which I find ironic.

 

No, I don't see any hypocrisy. You state an opinion, I state an opinion. Maybe I'm dumb, but I am obviously missing your point.

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If something can corrupt you, you're corrupted already.
- Bob Marley