NFL draft is all about projection. They are both great players and I think they are potential pro bowlers in Gus' system.


Fowler can just do more at a high level. Speed rush, bull rush, delayed blitz, set the edge, get off blocks, violent, better hand usage, and really good at dropping back in coverage. I love Fowlers versatility. He's also only 20 while Beasleys 22.

So speed rush and bull rush and hand usage is about all that really pertain to the Leo...and I think most would question your assessment that fowler is the better speed rush//bull rusher but to each his own.


I mean why is this even a question if Fowler does everything better?

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Wow, seriously? He was moved to C because FSU had no center, but that had depth behind Erving. Erving was an elite LT and it made the line better as a whole to get 2 good players on the field as opposed to 1. Cam Erving wouldn't be drafted much lower as a LT than a C - maybe late 2nd.


I can't believe people are even arguing that someone with 33 sacks vs someone with 14 sacks is even debatable as far as pass rush ability goes. Especially when you consider Fowler feasted against right tackles and tight ends when Beasley was beating high level LTs.

If he was an elite LT prospect he would be drafted as a LT but hes not

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Cam wasn't an elite tackle

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Erving is a decent LT prospect and a very good C prospect.

 

Versatile as hell.  Some team is going to get themselves an awesome player for 10 years when they draft him.

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First of all, let's not pretend like Erving is for sure going to be drafted as a center.  He can play anywhere on the line.  He decided to stick with center because he is projected to be the best center in the draft.  You don't normally see a high level college LT coming from a top level program convert to center, especially with his length.  Most tackles don't have the bend to be able to do that.  He would probably be competing with players like Peat, Humphries, Ogbuehi, and Fisher at the top of round 2 if he decided to stay LT.  And while he may not be an "elite" LT prospect in the sense that he is a top 5 or top 10 prospect, he certainly was elite at the college level and would have a chance at being a very good starting LT.

 

Fowler isn't physical and I don't know why people think he is.  Sure, he pushes around most tight ends and running backs, but against NFL calibur LT's, he gets crushed.  One play against Cam Robinson, he was driven backwards 6 or 7 yards before being pancaked in embarrassing style.  Fowler laid on the ground defeated while Cam stood over him and stared him down.  That is what you get from Fowler against physical, NFL calibur left tackles.  That game he was moved almost exclusively to rush from LE because he couldn't win upfront on the right side.  If you look at Fowler physically, he's got tree trunks for thighs and fluid hips for a man his size, but he's soft upper body, specifically in his chest and core.  He has the upper body of Luke Joeckel.  I strongly believe Fowler is more of a projection than Beasley because Fowler absolutely needs to get stronger to win the 1 on 1 matchups.  Look at his bench press - 19 is terrible for a supposed complete defensive lineman rumored to go #3 overall.  Out of 55 defensive linemen at the NFL Combine, he only outbenched 1 of them.  He only outbenched even 5 of the linebackers.

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First of all, let's not pretend like Erving is for sure going to be drafted as a center. He can play anywhere on the line. He decided to stick with center because he is projected to be the best center in the draft. You don't normally see a high level college LT coming from a top level program convert to center, especially with his length. Most tackles don't have the bend to be able to do that. He would probably be competing with players like Peat, Humphries, Ogbuehi, and Fisher at the top of round 2 if he decided to stay LT. And while he may not be an "elite" LT prospect in the sense that he is a top 5 or top 10 prospect, he certainly was elite at the college level and would have a chance at being a very good starting LT.


Fowler isn't physical and I don't know why people think he is. Sure, he pushes around most tight ends and running backs, but against NFL calibur LT's, he gets crushed. One play against Cam Robinson, he was driven backwards 6 or 7 yards before being pancaked in embarrassing style. Fowler laid on the ground defeated while Cam stood over him and stared him down. That is what you get from Fowler against physical, NFL calibur left tackles. That game he was moved almost exclusively to rush from LE because he couldn't win upfront on the right side. If you look at Fowler physically, he's got tree trunks for thighs and fluid hips for a man his size, but he's soft upper body, specifically in his chest and core. He has the upper body of Luke Joeckel. I strongly believe Fowler is more of a projection than Beasley because Fowler absolutely needs to get stronger to win the 1 on 1 matchups. Look at his bench press - 19 is terrible for a supposed complete defensive lineman rumored to go #3 overall. Out of 55 defensive linemen at the NFL Combine, he only outbenched 1 of them. He only outbenched even 5 of the linebackers.

And i have seen beasleyget thrown around like a rag doll in embarrassing fashion. Who cares? That stuff happens. Fowler is a very physical player.

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And i have seen beasleyget thrown around like a rag doll in embarrassing fashion. Who cares? That stuff happens. Fowler is a very physical player.

 

Everyone gets beat occasionally.  Everyone loses their balance and gets pancaked on rare occasion.  Fowler got driven straight backwards 6 or 7 yards off the snap and planted to spring like a 10 yard run.  I've seen Beasley pushed around and beaten before, but never "rag dolled." Especially considering the fact that its well-documented that Beasley's strength isn't power at the point, comparing him to Fowler in that category is pointless.  During the same Alabama game, Fowler also got driven back 2 or 3 yards out of his gap 1 on 1 against a tight end and then sealed at the goal line and was directly responsible for giving up the touchdown.  Like I said, Fowler is physical - against some right tackles, tight ends, and running backs.

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Fowlers three cone and short shuttle basically scream red flags if there is any validity to modern analytics

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Fowlers three cone and short shuttle basically scream red flags if there is any validity to modern analytics

 

Exactly, people are decidedly putting on the blinders against a handful of red flags against him.  He was considered a late first until Decemberish and then suddenly he skyrocketed for reasons unknown to me.  Dominique Easley was 10x the prospect last year and was easily the best Gators lineman.

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about fowler failing to beat tackles and beasley consistently beating elite tackles. he didnt really beat the tackles, he mainly used a speed rush and went around them.

 

thats not going to happen in the NFL. hes going to have to do something besides speed rush. 

there are certainly cases where it will work and his crazy athleticism and speed will win a match up.

 

but to say he consistently beat elite tackles isnt right. a lot of times he couldnt beat a tight end, or a blocking back if they met him head on. a lot like gregory he struggles to get off of blocks. 

 

 

It just so happens that the LEO position often puts the player in position to use their speed rush to go around everyone. That particular ability is essential for the position.


 

It's absolutely killing me how many here utterly fail to distinguish between the LEO position and a traditional 4-3 RDE. Fowler might be the next Tony Brackens, but Brackens would not have been an ideal LEO. Vic Beasley is everything you want from a LEO and more, and much of the criticism I've read relates to the "more," which is really just icing on his cake.

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'02

NFL draft is all about projection. They are both great players and I think they are potential pro bowlers in Gus' system.


Fowler can just do more at a high level. Speed rush, bull rush, delayed blitz, set the edge, get off blocks, violent, better hand usage, and really good at dropping back in coverage. I love Fowlers versatility. He's also only 20 while Beasleys 22.

 

 

And yet when I look at the combine stats, Beasley blows Fowler away... and when I look at their college stats, Beasley beats Fowler in sacks and TFLs.

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'02

The #1 oddity that I want to know how people got in their head is this myth that Fowler is going to be good in coverage? He did it less than twice a game at UF, and he didn't do anything special when he did so.

 

His well below average 3 cone/jumps/shuttles would suggest the opposite to me, that his poor lateral movement skills will get exposed greatly in coverage. I would put money on Beasley being the better coverage player in the NFL if they were asked to play the same role. Zero doubt in my mind. 

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The #1 oddity that I want to know how people got in their head is this myth that Fowler is going to be good in coverage? He did it less than twice a game at UF, and he didn't do anything special when he did so.

 

His well below average 3 cone/jumps/shuttles would suggest the opposite to me, that his poor lateral movement skills will get exposed greatly in coverage. I would put money on Beasley being the better coverage player in the NFL if they were asked to play the same role. Zero doubt in my mind. 

 

 

I'm thinking the same, although Fowler does have two INTs where Beasley has never had one. Then again, Beasley had two defensive TDs where Fowler has never had one, only that has nothing to do with coverage as they were on fumble recoveries.

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'02

I'm thinking the same, although Fowler does have two INTs where Beasley has never had one. Then again, Beasley had two defensive TDs where Fowler has never had one, only that has nothing to do with coverage as they were on fumble recoveries.

Fowler has INTs? I see two passes defensed for Fowler maybe that's what you were thinking (or my stats sheets are wrong)...in which case Beasley has nine in comparison. 

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And yet when I look at the combine stats, Beasley blows Fowler away... and when I look at their college stats, Beasley beats Fowler in sacks and TFLs.

Yeah! Let's just look at stats to draft players! If you watch Fowler you would notice that he wasn't asked just to line up and sack the QB on every single play like Ray or Beasley. But I guess it's much easier just to look at numbers than actually watch the players.

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Crab Cakes and Football! That's what Jacksonville does!

Yeah! Let's just look at stats to draft players! If you watch Fowler you would notice that he wasn't asked just to line up and sack the QB on every single play like Ray or Beasley. But I guess it's much easier just to look at numbers than actually watch the players.

 

So you think Beasley does nothing better than Fowler?

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Yeah! Let's just look at stats to draft players! If you watch Fowler you would notice that he wasn't asked just to line up and sack the QB on every single play like Ray or Beasley. But I guess it's much easier just to look at numbers than actually watch the players.

 

Seems like Beasley should have an easier transition because that is basically all the Leo is told to do...

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Yeah! Let's just look at stats to draft players! If you watch Fowler you would notice that he wasn't asked just to line up and sack the QB on every single play like Ray or Beasley. But I guess it's much easier just to look at numbers than actually watch the players.

I don't have the numbers, but from the eye's perspective, Fowler didn't drop into coverage any more than Beasley. He played Buck End the last 2 years which is kind of like a traditional defensive end that sometimes lines up like a 3-4 outside linebacker when they play up on the line. Its like the defensive line version of the otto. His freshman year he played a lot of linebacker, but in reality, for the last 2 years, he didn't drop into coverage as often as many have been lead to believe.

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So you think Beasley does nothing better than Fowler?

No that's not true. Beasley has more athleticism and has a better bend and dip. He'd make a great LEO.

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Crab Cakes and Football! That's what Jacksonville does!

I don't have the numbers, but from the eye's perspective, Fowler didn't drop into coverage any more than Beasley. He played Buck End the last 2 years which is kind of like a traditional defensive end that sometimes lines up like a 3-4 outside linebacker when they play up on the line. Its like the defensive line version of the otto. His freshman year he played a lot of linebacker, but in reality, for the last 2 years, he didn't drop into coverage as often as many have been lead to believe.

I didn't say he dropped back into coverage. He just didn't line up to get the qb like Ray or Beasley. Fowler played contain, the run, and was asked to read and diagnose plays before acting. Very different from what Beasley was asked to do. Shouldn't be any debate there.

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Crab Cakes and Football! That's what Jacksonville does!