Where can I send the racist flag for you to wave

 

If you were going to send any kind of "racist flag" to me, the origins better be Germany.

 

I'm going to get on a touchy subject here, but it needs to be said.  Many people are "offended" or "up in arms" regarding the confederate flag.  I wonder how many of those same people think about The Holocaust and what took place there?  How many of the people getting "offended" even know what happened in the early days of WWII much less what happened during the Civil War?

 

What I am getting at here, is in the past several people were discriminated against, sometimes fatally (my reference to the Holocaust).  However, there was certainly discrimination that took place years after the Civil War, and it wasn't against blacks.

 

My mother has told me about when she was growing up as a child, and going to public school.  They got slapped in the face (physically) if they were caught speaking Spanish (her native tounge, though she was born her in the U.S.).  If her lunch consisted of a burrito or tacos and beans, it was taken away because it wasn't a "proper" lunch.

 

What my point is, racism has been around and affected more in this country than just blacks.  You don't hear stories like my mother's because they are less common, especially for someone not from the southwest.

 

The bottom line is, if there is a monument erected with a flag that represents the soldiers that fought and died there, the flag should remain, and it doesn't matter who "won" or who "lost".  When somebody wants to argue with me with the topic "because slavery", I say get over it.  My ancestors had to endure a life that was oppressive as well, and you don't see any of them being "offended"

---

There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

If you were going to send any kind of "racist flag" to me, the origins better be Germany.

 

I'm going to get on a touchy subject here, but it needs to be said.  Many people are "offended" or "up in arms" regarding the confederate flag.  I wonder how many of those same people think about The Holocaust and what took place there?  How many of the people getting "offended" even know what happened in the early days of WWII much less what happened during the Civil War?

 

What I am getting at here, is in the past several people were discriminated against, sometimes fatally (my reference to the Holocaust).  However, there was certainly discrimination that took place years after the Civil War, and it wasn't against blacks.

 

My mother has told me about when she was growing up as a child, and going to public school.  They got slapped in the face (physically) if they were caught speaking Spanish (her native tounge, though she was born her in the U.S.).  If her lunch consisted of a burrito or tacos and beans, it was taken away because it wasn't a "proper" lunch.

 

What my point is, racism has been around and affected more in this country than just blacks.  You don't hear stories like my mother's because they are less common, especially for someone not from the southwest.

 

The bottom line is, if there is a monument erected with a flag that represents the soldiers that fought and died there, the flag should remain, and it doesn't matter who "won" or who "lost".  When somebody wants to argue with me with the topic "because slavery", I say get over it.  My ancestors had to endure a life that was oppressive as well, and you don't see any of them being "offended"

You can go back to the late 19th and early 20th century.  Irish and Italians were regularly discriminated against.

 

In the 1960's. there was an active debate about whether this country could survive electing a Catholic president. 

 

There is bigotry and hatred throughout the history of this country, yet we have somehow managed to overcome these obstacles and advance as a nation.  People should be celebrating the fact that in 239 years, this country has gone from a dream to gaining independence, overcoming a civil war, ending slavery, winning 2 world wars to beat back tyranny and oppression, put minorities of both genders on the highest court in the land, appointed multiple minorities to some of the highest political offices in the land, and elected a black president.  Rather than celebrate that, we're more divided as a nation, and much of that division is manufactured by the very people we should be celebrating.  Unfortunately, we're too distracted by rioting or flags we find objectionable because that's where they need our attention.  It's a shame.

---

Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Did the North try to break away from the union to keep slavery? Are you that dense? The discussion is about the flag and what it symbolizes

 

so is your issue that they broke away or that they where all racist? 

 

because you've been hammering this whole I'm fighting racism thing most of the thread, but you can justify the north having slaves because they didn't try and break away to protect it?

 

I guess racism is ok so long as it's coming from your side.....hmm

---

Haha. Ok. The Civil War wasnt about slavery. Now I see where our opinions diverge. Gotcha. Have a good day. Thanks for the spelling lesson boss. 

The South sure weren't for State's Rights when it came to the Fugitive Slave Act.  People love to romanticize the South with ideas of them fighting against a tyrant, and being more about state's rights and certainly not about slavery.  Clearly they'd have gotten rid of slavery before long.  

---

I was wrong about Trent Baalke. 

You can go back to the late 19th and early 20th century.  Irish and Italians were regularly discriminated against.

 

In the 1960's. there was an active debate about whether this country could survive electing a Catholic president. 

 

There is bigotry and hatred throughout the history of this country, yet we have somehow managed to overcome these obstacles and advance as a nation.  People should be celebrating the fact that in 239 years, this country has gone from a dream to gaining independence, overcoming a civil war, ending slavery, winning 2 world wars to beat back tyranny and oppression, put minorities of both genders on the highest court in the land, appointed multiple minorities to some of the highest political offices in the land, and elected a black president.  Rather than celebrate that, we're more divided as a nation, and much of that division is manufactured by the very people we should be celebrating.  Unfortunately, we're too distracted by rioting or flags we find objectionable because that's where they need our attention.  It's a shame.

 

Brother, very well put, especially the last paragraph.  Unfortunately, I often see and hear people (mostly the younger generation) speak bad about "American Greatness".  Many don't think that our country is "great" or that we have done anything notable.

 

These same people "tweet" on their smart phones or post to facebook, yet they don't realize that we as a country and a community created these things.

 

Talk about American Greatness for a bit.  We put man on the moon.  We invented and developed computers.  The C programming language (still in use today) was developed by Dennis Richie back in the 70's.  We developed the internet as well as the personal computer that most people own and use.  "Smart phones" were first developed and created by us.  The list goes on.

 

To try and get back on topic, this happened without anyone really caring about a flag flying above a war memorial.

---

There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

Brother, very well put, especially the last paragraph.  Unfortunately, I often see and hear people (mostly the younger generation) speak bad about "American Greatness".  Many don't think that our country is "great" or that we have done anything notable.

 

These same people "tweet" on their smart phones or post to facebook, yet they don't realize that we as a country and a community created these things.

 

Talk about American Greatness for a bit.  We put man on the moon.  We invented and developed computers.  The C programming language (still in use today) was developed by Dennis Richie back in the 70's.  We developed the internet as well as the personal computer that most people own and use.  "Smart phones" were first developed and created by us.  The list goes on.

 

To try and get back on topic, this happened without anyone really caring about a flag flying above a war memorial.

American exceptionalism is considered a bad thing with the generation coming up.  They've been ingrained in that mindset by the same people who protested this nation in the 60's, 70's and 80s.  These people entered the ranks of "educators" and slowly went about rewriting American history in a very methodical way, eliminating things and really focusing on social issues that were the focal point of THEIR formative years. 

 

As a result, we've got a generation of young Americans growing up who don't know how to think, and who don't have any perspective based on the factual and complete history of this nation.  We're seeing that expand beyond even their wildest dreams with common core.  I heard a great description of this a while back where they aren't educating people to be thinkers.  They're training them to be workers.  That fits right into the mindset of our current leadership.

 

This shooting had nothing to do with that flag.  That was simply a convenient byproduct that could be leveraged int hat never ending quest to take full advantage of any tragedy for political gain.  The anti gun and anti flag folks pounced almost immediately.  It's what they do. 

---

Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

The South sure weren't for State's Rights when it came to the Fugitive Slave Act.  People love to romanticize the South with ideas of them fighting against a tyrant, and being more about state's rights and certainly not about slavery.  Clearly they'd have gotten rid of slavery before long.  

Nobody is trying to romanticize anything here, and nobody is saying the Civil War wasn't about slavery.  Again, you proggies love to twist reality to fit your leftist views, but the reality is that you're simply ignoring some pieces while cherry picking others to suit your agenda.  The funny thing is that you're not even that transparent about it. 

---

Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

so is your issue that they broke away or that they where all racist? 

 

because you've been hammering this whole I'm fighting racism thing most of the thread, but you can justify the north having slaves because they didn't try and break away to protect it?

 

I guess racism is ok so long as it's coming from your side.....hmm

Well, if you own slaves but you don't have a Succession Statement, you can't be labeled racist.  You're not using progressive filters when applying logic.  Get with the program. 

---

Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

The anti gun and anti flag folks pounced almost immediately.  It's what they do. 

Having your defense on the field 100% of the time must be tiring.

 

I don't identify with the anti-gun nuts any more than I identify with the gun nuts, and my issue with the Confederate flag is that it represents treason, not that it represents slavery or racism. If you were to comment that Obama was way out of line bringing gun control into his address on the shooting, I'd have agreed with you, but let's not pretend that jumping all over an issue and politicizing it is a uniquely left-wing phenomenon. A senior representative of the NRA put out a statement that literally blamed the pastor of the church for the shootings. The head of the South Carolina Sons of the Confederacy put out a statement that was little more than a slanted history lesson, which ended with a very blunt assertion that there is no correlation between the rebel flag and racism, and "don't try to create one."

 

I can't help but notice that in this forum in particular, participants in a debate either agree with you or are ignorant or unintelligent. Stop being so ignorant as to paint the right wing as a bunch of intelligent, enlightened folk, and the left wing as loud-mouthed un-American whiners. Take a look at the American political landscape, maybe read a little beyond the first page of foxnews.com, and you'll see that there are plenty of idiots to go around.

---

Having your defense on the field 100% of the time must be tiring.

 

I don't identify with the anti-gun nuts any more than I identify with the gun nuts, and my issue with the Confederate flag is that it represents treason, not that it represents slavery or racism. If you were to comment that Obama was way out of line bringing gun control into his address on the shooting, I'd have agreed with you, but let's not pretend that jumping all over an issue and politicizing it is a uniquely left-wing phenomenon. A senior representative of the NRA put out a statement that literally blamed the pastor of the church for the shootings. The head of the South Carolina Sons of the Confederacy put out a statement that was little more than a slanted history lesson, which ended with a very blunt assertion that there is no correlation between the rebel flag and racism, and "don't try to create one."

 

I can't help but notice that in this forum in particular, participants in a debate either agree with you or are ignorant or unintelligent. Stop being so ignorant as to paint the right wing as a bunch of intelligent, enlightened folk, and the left wing as loud-mouthed un-American whiners. Take a look at the American political landscape, maybe read a little beyond the first page of foxnews.com, and you'll see that there are plenty of idiots to go around.

 

I can accept the Treason argument, I disagree with it but that's not the issue. 

---

I'm talking about the first world the industrial revolution alone would've put slavery out of business


Not to mention it was massively unconstitutional and a violation of natural rights.

 

Totally disagree.  The power structure was set to maintain slavery in perpetuity.  The only thing that changed it was war, cuz the powers that owned slaves were not going to give up that free labor without a fight.  

 

I mean, come on.  Think of it like a rational man.  If a business endeavor can cut costs and increase profits by exploiting free/cheap labor, why would you let it go willingly?  They wouldn't.

 

To deny that is to ignore the basic flaw of all men.

---

I believe someone started the discussion by mentioning that it's "Just a Flag".

 

From Wiki:  A <b>flag</b> is a piece of fabric (most often rectangular or quadrilateral) with a distinctive design that is used as a symbol, as a signaling device, or as decoration.

 

I bolded for emphasis the portion that matters.  This "flag" in discussion is used as a symbol, as a signaling device.  It helps ID racists.  Racists use it as a calling card.   

 

Those that think about it in terms of "southern pride" have the absolute right to think of it as southern pride.  But, unfortunately, it's more than just that.  It's a racist symbol for the vast majority of citizens.

 

When you see the confederate flag, you see racism.  I'm all for people flying it.  It gives me a really quick identification of how those people really think.  Libbies use it as a marker to ID teabaggers...  It may offend you that most people see it as a racist symbol..  It may bother you that most people see it as a racist signaling device.  But one's delicacies don't change the reality.  

 

If a racist wants to fly that flag, let them.  But for all the rationalization a person wants to put on it, it's still racist.  It's a symbol for slavery, for humanities cruelty on man, and it's a signal to others that the person that is hoisting that flag is, at the kindest, an un-educated bigot.  

 

I personally would never socialize with someone that waives that flag around.  But hey, if you want to waive it around, go for it.  A state should never prosecute or impede a racist from flying that around his house, or buying it.  A state should also not keep flying it, since you know.  The south lost.  

 

Oh and the south shall never rise again.  Those people need to realize that.  The country is getting browner, it is getting less white over time. 

---

Totally disagree. The power structure was set to maintain slavery in perpetuity. The only thing that changed it was war, cuz the powers that owned slaves were not going to give up that free labor without a fight.


I mean, come on. Think of it like a rational man. If a business endeavor can cut costs and increase profits by exploiting free/cheap labor, why would you let it go willingly? They wouldn't.


To deny that is to ignore the basic flaw of all men.

We overcame segregation, women's suffrage, child labor abuse and a whole host of other violations of civil liberties. I refuse to believe Slavery would never have ended without war, almost every other culture in the world ended it without war. Are we to believe we are the one exception?


Even removing the morality out of the equation look at it from a cost perspective. Owning slaves was not free nor inexpensive which is why such a small portion of the south owned slaves. The industrial revolution provided machines that did not need to be feed or housed to do the same labor. Slavery was destined to become an economic deficiency then the natural evolution away from it would have happened.

---

I love that "states rights" argument. Yeah, the right for citizens of that state to own slaves. That "right" always seems to be avoided when discussing states rights. And owning slaves was what the rancor was all about for the 30 year run up to the Civil War. Which states could you or could you not own slaves. Period. It was considered natural law.

 

I'm sure there are (still) a few Germans who thing the swastika wasn't about Jews at all; it's a symbol of the strength and vibrancy of the German nation.

---

The sun's not yellow, it's chicken.

We overcame segregation, women's suffrage, child labor abuse and a whole host of other violations of civil liberties. I refuse to believe Slavery would never have ended without war, almost every other culture in the world ended it without war. Are we to believe we are the one exception?


Even removing the morality out of the equation look at it from a cost perspective. Owning slaves was not free nor inexpensive which is why such a small portion of the south owned slaves. The industrial revolution provided machines that did not need to be feed or housed to do the same labor. Slavery was destined to become an economic deficiency then the natural evolution away from it would have happened.

 

Easy for you to say, if you weren't one of the slaves. Hey, it's only been 300 years! Just hang on a little longer.

---

The sun's not yellow, it's chicken.

I love that "states rights" argument. Yeah, the right for citizens of that state to own slaves. That "right" always seems to be avoided when discussing states rights. And owning slaves was what the rancor was all about for the 30 year run up to the Civil War. Which states could you or could you not own slaves. Period. It was considered natural law.

 

I'm sure there are (still) a few Germans who thing the swastika wasn't about Jews at all; it's a symbol of the strength and vibrancy of the German nation.

 

<p style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">Easy for you to say, if you weren't one of the slaves. Hey, it's only been 300 years! Just hang on a little longer.

Like I said, the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 certainly quelled state's rights.  They very much were against state's rights, particularly northern state's rights to be against slavery.   They certainly didn't want abolitionists in other states to have the right to assemble.  Many like to look upon the Confederates as a symbol of State's Rights.  I think they'd do better to find a better symbol.  The states rights that the south was most concerned with were the right to own slaves as you said.


As for ending slavery... that's a very easy argument for people to make.  You can't really disprove it.  But I see no reason to believe that it'd have ended within the next 40 years.  I mean giving up on Free Labor?  And then you have the idea of white supremacy which continued in the South even after the Civil War.  The end of slavery wasn't in sight, and would likely have taken a long time before it could no longer be supported.  Sure, there were many southerners who didn't own slaves (some of which did not support seceding) but many of them hoped to one day join the upper class elites and own slaves themselves.  Much like we have people today in similar frame of mind.    Slavery was the defining cultural institution in the South.  How much progress had been made in the many years leading up to the civil war to end slavery? 


If the South never seceded, and we don't have a civil war, I'd say Slavery probably would have lasted until around the turn of the century.  If the south succeeded in seceding on the other hand, I'd say it might not have happened until the First World War or so.  

---

I was wrong about Trent Baalke. 

With all the recent and quick reactions of the businesses and political leaders to the flag I feel better now knowing that the issue really has nothing at all to do with the flag itself..


As a matter of fact once his thing blows over their will probably be something else hanging around at the memorial that some people find offensive and will be left right where it is... Even if it is only the confederate memorial itself, which will still be on state grounds, flag or no flag.


This is all a political agenda to get people to focus all of their racial tensions on a non living external object...


I mean what political leader or major coorp feels safe taking a side in the white cop vs African american debate we have been going through. And the recent Charleston shooting only highlights the racial tension that many have been wanting to talk about for months...


The confederate flag is an avenue for political figures and puppeteers to band together and say "look, there is the bad guy and all he represents! Let's show everyone how not racist we (the individual in question) really are! Take that thing down!"


It's a shame, because it's the people that do care for what the veterans and what the historical significance stands for that is caught defending their loved ones once again..


But just like a few years ago when the debate was going on, they will come to some symbolic resolution, and move on.. And in the end the symbol will remain. Because in the end we ignore the real problems that face us as a society today to focus on political agendas and [BLEEP] racist bias perpetuated by social media. If anyone thinks that flag had anything to do with African Americans getting shot by cops, or with some psychotic teenager shooting unarmed people in church, then you should question your views about our society as it stands today.


In short, the flag no longer effects our policies, citizens, and actions like it did even 50 years ago.


And it has no bearing on racism in America today. If it comes down, it will do nothing, less than nothing to stop racism today. and it will certainly not create more jobs for lower income people, and hold people accountable for their actions.

---

We overcame segregation, women's suffrage, child labor abuse and a whole host of other violations of civil liberties. I refuse to believe Slavery would never have ended without war, almost every other culture in the world ended it without war. Are we to believe we are the one exception?


Even removing the morality out of the equation look at it from a cost perspective. Owning slaves was not free nor inexpensive which is why such a small portion of the south owned slaves. The industrial revolution provided machines that did not need to be feed or housed to do the same labor. Slavery was destined to become an economic deficiency then the natural evolution away from it would have happened.

There is no evidence slavery would have ended naturally. There was no antebellum abolitionist movement in the South. To be completely honest the entire social system was set up to reinforce slavery.


Economically speaking, slaves represented real property value. The South's biggest asset wasn't cotton or plantations, it was continual access to the human beings that could harvest the cotton free of charge. This is why the Southern economy collapsed after 1865. "Cotton don't pick itself". Nathan B. Forrest said something along the lines of "I was a millionaire before the war and I leave a pauper" Why? Because he owned multiple plantations and all his 'wealth' was in slaves.

---

"Before you criticize a man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he's a mile away and barefoot."

So the confederate flag is banned from being sold due to social pressure because racist. When are these companies going to ban the Egyptian flag, Roman flag, Russian Empire flag, UK flag, Portuguese flag, Spanish flag, Nazi Germany flag, USSR flag, PR of China flag,  Imperial Japan flag, and South Africa flag? They are all equally if not more racist and certainly more devastating to enslaved populations.

 

The hypocrisy is unreal.

 

There is no evidence slavery would have ended naturally. There was no antebellum abolitionist movement in the South. To be completely honest the entire social system was set up to reinforce slavery.


Economically speaking, slaves represented real property value. The South's biggest asset wasn't cotton or plantations, it was continual access to the human beings that could harvest the cotton free of charge. This is why the Southern economy collapsed after 1865. "Cotton don't pick itself". Nathan B. Forrest said something along the lines of "I was a millionaire before the war and I leave a pauper" Why? Because he owned multiple plantations and all his 'wealth' was in slaves.

 

Robert E. Lee as well as most Southern historians believed that slavery would have ended not long after the South had won it's freedom. Brazil had slavery well after the US abolished it, but still outlawed it before the turn of the century without civil war. Plantation profitability was plummeting with the introduction of industrialization and machinery and slave labor would not longer be worth its cost in the United States.

---

So the confederate flag is banned from being sold due to social pressure because racist. When are these companies going to ban the Egyptian flag, Roman flag, Russian Empire flag, UK flag, Portuguese flag, Spanish flag, Nazi Germany flag, USSR flag, PR of China flag,  Imperial Japan flag, and South Africa flag? They are all equally if not more racist and certainly more devastating to enslaved populations.

 

The hypocrisy is unreal.

 

 

Wait. Walmart, Amazon and Sears sell Nazi flags??

---

;

;