I have no objections to deporting non-violent criminal aliens either. If you aren't a citizen and you're dealing drugs, stealing identities, whatever, then we shouldn't want you here.


And Obama targeting criminal aliens is a joke. Violent criminal aliens have always been priority in deportations. This is code for, "Our new policy means we ONLY deport violent criminal aliens." And even that is a farce as has been reported dozens of times in the news and I have personally witnessed.

I hear ya. But your missing my point. A criminal alien includes undocumented workers in the ultra conservative vocabulary.


Which leads back to my point. We then become a papers please society for a particular group with a certain melanin configuration...


I mean it's right there in his speech on Wednesday night.

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I hear ya. But your missing my point. A criminal alien includes undocumented workers in the ultra conservative vocabulary.


Which leads back to my point. We then become a papers please society for a particular group with a certain melanin configuration...


I mean it's right there in his speech on Wednesday night.

That's not what were talking about. Trump detailed that 2 millionish CRIMINAL ALIENS would be the target. That's not ALL aliens.


He has said expressly that would be his executive priority.

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Your points are reasonable.


To me the problem is this-- of the 11 - 20 million undocumented how much benefit is there to kick them all out. Trump keeps talking out of both sides of his mouth.


One day he's saying they all have to go. Then the next day he's describing a plan that sounds a lot like Obama's current policy.

 

The average household headed by an immigrant (legal or illegal) costs taxpayers $6,234 in federal welfare benefits, which is 41 percent higher than the $4,431 received by the average native household. Some liberal sources try to dispute this claim by saying illegal immigrants can not go on welfare, but they get around that via their children, so the data is often skewed.  They can also be claimed as dependents by legal residents.  They just need to obtain an ITIN, which isn't difficult and isn't shared with any other agency. 

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I thought the argument was that Trump is a racist, not the fiscal responsibility associated with a wall's cost?


As far as numbers go, it depends on which reports you read, but it is generally between 20 and 30%. That is significant considering that the Border Patrol alone apprehends 300-500,000 people per year.


On top of that, most of the remaining people are family units that are scamming US immigration law by using children as pawns to get themselves into the country.

So between 2.2 and 3.3 million murderers and rapists? Which reports are these exactly?

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Only a chump boos the home team!

That's not what were talking about. Trump detailed that 2 millionish CRIMINAL ALIENS would be the target. That's not ALL aliens.


He has said expressly that would be his executive priority.

But Obama is already doing that according to several news outlets...

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The average household headed by an immigrant (legal or illegal) costs taxpayers $6,234 in federal welfare benefits, which is 41 percent higher than the $4,431 received by the average native household. Some liberal sources try to dispute this claim by saying illegal immigrants can not go on welfare, but they get around that via their children, so the data is often skewed. They can also be claimed as dependents by legal residents. They just need to obtain an ITIN, which isn't difficult and isn't shared with any other agency.

Can you provide a source? If this is correct, then that's definitely an issue that needs to be corrected.


But is this issue adv immigration issue or a welfare fraud issue?

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But Obama is already doing that according to several news outlets...

20k criminal aliens released into the community last year alone. There are people whose lives have been adversely affected. Trump has highlighted the mothers who have lost sons and daughters. We are enabling sanctuary cities to completely defy immigration laws. In some parts of the country police aren't even interested in pursuing criminals that are illegal aliens because they know nothing will be done about them. 36% of or federal prison population are illegal immigrants.

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So between 2.2 and 3.3 million murderers and rapists? Which reports are these exactly?

 

No.  You are purposely trying to be obtuse.  

 

Eleven million people didn't illegally cross the border.  A great majority of them overstayed or violated visas.  Out of the remaining however many, 20 - 30% have criminal records with the United States, not necessarily rape and murder and not including Mexican criminal record.  

 

This means that 50 - 100,000 apprehensions per year by the Border Patrol have previous criminal history in the United States.  I don't want small towns worth of criminals streaming into the country every year, rape/murder or not.  

 

You can google the reports.  A 10 second google search popped up several results for me.

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I hear ya. But your missing my point. A criminal alien includes undocumented workers in the ultra conservative vocabulary.


Which leads back to my point. We then become a papers please society for a particular group with a certain melanin configuration...


I mean it's right there in his speech on Wednesday night.

 

I can't speak for how any one person defines criminal alien.  I can only speak for its actually definition.  The only undocumented workers who have committed a crime are the ones who intentionally entered into the United States by fraud or the ones who never presented themselves for inspection.  The vast majority came over on valid visas and overstayed, which isn't criminal.  

 

We don't even have anywhere near the resources to deport all the illegals we encounter currently, let alone if we became a "Papers please," society.  The constitution isn't just suddenly bypassed because we begin enforcing immigration laws.  There is still the 4th Amendment.  

 

A latino person can't just be pulled over for no reason by law enforcement. A latino person isn't compelled to answer any of a law enforcement officers questions if he is pulled over.  It's no different than if a cop asks you if you've had anything to drink or where you are coming/going.

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So we are gonna justify a $450B effort (wall not included) for 50-100,000 people and none of them are named bin Laden?


I'm amazed a year ago Mexican rapists and murderers were not an epidemic threat before Trump started his campaign.

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Only a chump boos the home team!

So we are gonna justify a $450B effort (wall not included) for 50-100,000 people and none of them are named bin Laden?


I'm amazed a year ago Mexican rapists and murderers were not an epidemic threat before Trump started his campaign.

 

A $450 billion dollar effort to prevent 50 - 100,000 criminals from illegally entering the country?  Yes.

 

To save money in the long run by no longer granting asylum to every single Central American who brings a child with them, speaks no English and maybe not even Spanish, and has zero education/skills?  Yes.

 

To slow Mexican Drug Cartels from trafficking dangerous drugs and endangering/extorting/killing thousands of destitute people.  Yes.

 

To stop the occasional terrorist or weapons of mass destruction?  Yes.

 

To actually enforce our country's sovereignty? Yes.

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You do realize by your own math that could be $9B per criminal. Billion with a B. (Wall not included)

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Only a chump boos the home team!

You do realize by your own math that could be $9B per criminal. Billion with a B. (Wall not included)

 

Again.  You are purposely being obtuse to try and fit your talking point.

 

It's $450 billion dollars over roughly 20 years and includes deporting all 11 million illegals in the country.  The math looks significantly better when you paint the whole picture.  That equals out to roughly $20,000 per person if you include the entries over the next 20 years.  And it also creates a ton of jobs in the process - whether you want more government jobs or not is a whole other argument for another time. 

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Again. You are purposely being obtuse to try and fit your talking point.


It's $450 billion dollars over roughly 20 years and includes deporting all 11 million illegals in the country. The math looks significantly better when you paint the whole picture. That equals out to roughly $20,000 per person if you include the entries over the next 20 years. And it also creates a ton of jobs in the process - whether you want more government jobs or not is a whole other argument for another time.

I'm just using the numbers you provided. That's a pretty broad range. Have to question the validity of this estimate as there is a vast difference between 50 and 100,000.


Again, those 11 million illegals are making money doing jobs the vast majority of unemployed natural born citizens will not do. You think deportation riot squads are a sustainable workforce solution?


Admit it, a year ago you never thought deporting 11 million people was even an attainable goal. It still isn't, but the tangerine snake oil salesman has guaranteed it (believe me) and you're taking it hook, line and sinker.

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Only a chump boos the home team!

20k criminal aliens released into the community last year alone. There are people whose lives have been adversely affected. Trump has highlighted the mothers who have lost sons and daughters. We are enabling sanctuary cities to completely defy immigration laws. In some parts of the country police aren't even interested in pursuing criminals that are illegal aliens because they know nothing will be done about them. 36% of or federal prison population are illegal immigrants.

 

But news outlets stated that Obama requested the end of sanctuary cities as well...

 

I get it...  Anyone that's murdered and even injured in a situation that could be prevented is tragic.  But I'm just sitting here wondering where the nanny state ends and reality begins.

 

People are going to leave a horrible situation for a better one if they think they can get relief.  Prosecute the owners that are hiring these undocumented workers and things change.  You don't even need a wall.  Just make sure they cannot get paid or get welfare...  The word will get out.

 

Also, I've noticed that we're beginning to not cite sources of where we hear things.

 

Let me start by saying I've googled trump's policies and from many sources (Washington Post, CNN, Pollitico) there are articles that show that Obama and trump's immigration policies are actually similar than what trump is lying about.  I'd like to start asking my friends on the right to at least say where they have heard or read the figures that are provided.  I know it's hard to provide links when responding via your mobile device.  But please at least just start stating the specific place you read or heard the figures you're giving.

 

I'm guilty of not proving sources as well...  So I'm not saying us libertarian/lefties are innocent.  I just would like us to start at least proving a reference to where our information is coming from so if anyone wants to double check, they can.

 

Fair enough, right?

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I can't speak for how any one person defines criminal alien.  I can only speak for its actually definition.  The only undocumented workers who have committed a crime are the ones who intentionally entered into the United States by fraud or the ones who never presented themselves for inspection.  The vast majority came over on valid visas and overstayed, which isn't criminal.  

 

We don't even have anywhere near the resources to deport all the illegals we encounter currently, let alone if we became a "Papers please," society.  The constitution isn't just suddenly bypassed because we begin enforcing immigration laws.  There is still the 4th Amendment.  

 

A latino person can't just be pulled over for no reason by law enforcement. A latino person isn't compelled to answer any of a law enforcement officers questions if he is pulled over.  It's no different than if a cop asks you if you've had anything to drink or where you are coming/going.

 

I live in NM...  The vast majority of folks I work with and live around can be looked upon as someone that came across never presenting themselves for inspection!  Can you understand the concern of a libertarian that would be worried that a trump authoritarian regime would work to make everyone in a specific sector of the nation with a certain physical appearence may be considered illegal by the standards you just provided in the bolded part?

 

In the scenario I'm asking--based on your definition-- there is no amount of law enforcement that will get us to a good situation.  But what is bound it happen is a situation where at the very least the southern sector of the homeland is controlled by a fascist directive that is focused on ensuring the fraudulent are weeded out, and that if you dare question it, then you are suspect of either being one or housing one.

 

I mean, you're writing out the situation that we've all seen happen in history.  And yet you have no worries of it.  I find that disturbing.  Any libertarian that is worth their weight sees the problem with allowing this person the power he is requesting.

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<a class="bbc_url" href='http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/apr/27/homland-security-releasaing-thousands-illegal-immi/'>http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/apr/27/homland-security-releasaing-thousands-illegal-immi/</a>

I posted this earlier. 20k CRIMINAL ALIENS released back into our communities.

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And there is also the manner of drugs, human trafficking, and criminals at the border. The guy who shot Kate Steinlee was a drug dealer. Cartels don't care if they can fake a as card. There are also an estimated 30 k illegal border crossings from people from terror states. That can't happen. As a nation, we have to have sovereignty.

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I live in NM...  The vast majority of folks I work with and live around can be looked upon as someone that came across never presenting themselves for inspection!  Can you understand the concern of a libertarian that would be worried that a trump authoritarian regime would work to make everyone in a specific sector of the nation with a certain physical appearence may be considered illegal by the standards you just provided in the bolded part?

 

In the scenario I'm asking--based on your definition-- there is no amount of law enforcement that will get us to a good situation.  But what is bound it happen is a situation where at the very least the southern sector of the homeland is controlled by a fascist directive that is focused on ensuring the fraudulent are weeded out, and that if you dare question it, then you are suspect of either being one or housing one.

 

I mean, you're writing out the situation that we've all seen happen in history.  And yet you have no worries of it.  I find that disturbing.  Any libertarian that is worth their weight sees the problem with allowing this person the power he is requesting.

 

I am a hispanic libertarian living in Arizona.  Both Republican and Democratic parties are heavily authoritarian.  The Libertarian Party is the only party that isn't authoritarian.  

 

Yes, by definition if you came into the country illegally then you have committed a crime... I don't understand the outrage here.  It has nothing to do with being brown.  These people have committed a crime and not only will never face prosecution for those crimes, but are now somehow immune to deportation as well? We're talking about administrative removals, not even prosecution.  Again, it has nothing to do with color and everything to do with the law.  There are boatloads of Romanians and Indians coming over as well... It's not just hispanic/latino people.  

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I'm just using the numbers you provided. That's a pretty broad range. Have to question the validity of this estimate as there is a vast difference between 50 and 100,000.


Again, those 11 million illegals are making money doing jobs the vast majority of unemployed natural born citizens will not do. You think deportation riot squads are a sustainable workforce solution?


Admit it, a year ago you never thought deporting 11 million people was even an attainable goal. It still isn't, but the tangerine snake oil salesman has guaranteed it (believe me) and you're taking it hook, line and sinker.

 

Here's the hyperbole.  Deportation riot squads.

 

The whole "Our economy would be in ruins without latinos doing menial jobs" thing is always the default argument.  The only part of the country somewhat dependent on undocumented workers is in the rural southwest where work visas are very easily issued to those who want to work the fields.  It really isn't a big deal.  Its kind of degrading to always lump together 11 million people into being landscapers and field workers.

 

I don't think deporting 11 million people is an attainable goal now.  I'm perfectly happy just deporting the illegals as they are encountered.  There is no need to go rounding people up.  If Trump wants to try, more power to him.  

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