Its not about him not beating them out. Its about not spending all of our resources to allocate a player to the bench when we can use another million combinations of those resources to do the same thing while still having yannick or fowler start and gettijg blue chip players at other positions. You literally just said you believe Fowler can be a tier below von miller while already being good against the run. So why in the world would you put him on the bench. Yeah yeah rotation! the giants had endless pass rushers! Id like to be spared the cliches and jargon, thats just a mismanagement of our resources. But were going to keep disagreeing on Yannick and Fowler so this is kind of a waste anyways.

Did I say anything about what the Giants did or having endless pass rushers? Don't box my thoughts into preconceived notions. I'm purely making an assessment on what is best for this roster given what we have to evaluate from last year. There is no way in the world you can tell me we should not sign JPP after we were almost dead last in the league in pressures. Likewise, you cannot tell me that if Jonathan Allen is there when we pick and he is the top player on our board that we shouldn't take him just because we have Ngakoue and Fowler, which is basically what you're saying. Neither one showed enough last year to make you from feel comfortable at the position when building this team, and going into the offseason thinking we are fine at pass rusher is asinine. Even with me feeling that Fowler will be good I can still acknowledge that. What is best for this team is ensuring the pass rush will be good, and that means signing JPP and taking Allen if he is there. Completely banking on Fowler and Ngakoue to take the next step is foolhardy proposition when you can acquire two better players and hedge your bets regardless, and if they both improve then we have an all world DL rotation, if we don't then we're still good. To think this is a problematic proposition because of one pick, which you overexaggerate as "another million combinations", is short sighted.

 

What we're really talking about here is one pick, because we have more than enough FA money to sign JPP and whoever else we want and not having to worry about being cash strapped in the future. What it really comes down to is the 4th pick, and in reality there are probably only 3-4 options at that pick for us and by the time the draft roles around that will probably be dwindled to a solid three if we acquire a S in FA or re-sign Cyprien; Jonathan Allen, Leonard Fournette, and Solomon Thomas. Since Allen and Thomas are essentially the same kind of player we can lump them in the same boat so you're talking about either taking your 5T, interior rushing D-lineman or Fournette. While Fournette is nice I will take the future All-Pro lineman over the All-Pro RB every time, and we should if Allen/Thomas is higher on our board. From there we can draft a OL in the second round and trade back up for one of the RBs. There is nothing wrong with that scenario and in my mind is the best case to improve this team to the fullest.

 

I laugh a little when people on here tell us to "watch the tape" like we're sitting around all day watching game film from the last 3-13 season. 

 

We watched the games too but we don't call it "watching the tape." 

I watch the All-22, that is the "tape". I can clearly tell from how you're talking you don't, and the rest of you aren't either since you're just buying into the narrative that ngakoue is a savant or something. Watching the game live and watching the All-22 is completely different. But continue to be ignorant.

 

Just to make himself look more knowledgeable/whatever he says is gospel about the subject.

Sorry I actually watch tape.

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"A man with no sauce is lost.

<p style="text-align:center;">But that same man can get lost in the sauce."

Did I say anything about what the Giants did or having endless pass rushers? Don't box my thoughts into preconceived notions. I'm purely making an assessment on what is best for this roster given what we have to evaluate from last year. There is no way in the world you can tell me we should not sign JPP after we were almost dead last in the league in pressures. Likewise, you cannot tell me that if Jonathan Allen is there when we pick and he is the top player on our board that we shouldn't take him just because we have Ngakoue and Fowler, which is basically what you're saying. Neither one showed enough last year to make you from feel comfortable at the position when building this team, and going into the offseason thinking we are fine at pass rusher is asinine. Even with me feeling that Fowler will be good I can still acknowledge that. What is best for this team is ensuring the pass rush will be good, and that means signing JPP and taking Allen if he is there. Completely banking on Fowler and Ngakoue to take the next step is foolhardy proposition when you can acquire two better players and hedge your bets regardless, and if they both improve then we have an all world DL rotation, if we don't then we're still good. To think this is a problematic proposition because of one pick, which you overexaggerate as "another million combinations", is short sighted.


What we're really talking about here is one pick, because we have more than enough FA money to sign JPP and whoever else we want and not having to worry about being cash strapped in the future. What it really comes down to is the 4th pick, and in reality there are probably only 3-4 options at that pick for us and by the time the draft roles around that will probably be dwindled to a solid three if we acquire a S in FA or re-sign Cyprien; Jonathan Allen, Leonard Fournette, and Solomon Thomas. Since Allen and Thomas are essentially the same kind of player we can lump them in the same boat so you're talking about either taking your 5T, interior rushing D-lineman or Fournette. While Fournette is nice I will take the future All-Pro lineman over the All-Pro RB every time, and we should if Allen/Thomas is higher on our board. From there we can draft a OL in the second round and trade back up for one of the RBs. There is nothing wrong with that scenario and in my mind is the best case to improve this team to the fullest.


I watch the All-22, that is the "tape". I can clearly tell from how you're talking you don't, and the rest of you aren't either since you're just buying into the narrative that ngakoue is a savant or something. Watching the game live and watching the All-22 is completely different. But continue to be ignorant.


Sorry I actually watch tape.

alright I can get behind this then. I concede.

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"why do you think he was drafted 3 overall"


who drafted dante fowler 3 overall


"caldwell the same guy who said we can win a championship with blake bortles"

Your point?

 

<a class="bbc_url" href='http://playmakermentality.com/what-is-a-force-player'>http://playmakermentality.com/what-is-a-force-player</a>




Cameron Jordan, Brandon Graham, and Melvin Ingram are all force players. JPP is a mid force player, and only clowney and mercilus arent. Bosa had a good 3 cone fwiw.

1. Brandon Graham being a FP is iffy because several of his workouts came from his proday and not only that I don't understand how he can be a FP with the numbers he posted. The whole logic behind FP is dumb to me. It's a nice tool but no the end all be all. Chris Smith was a FP too.

 

2. Doesn't change the fact that there plenty of pass rushers who are tops in the league who are not FPs. 

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"A man with no sauce is lost.

<p style="text-align:center;">But that same man can get lost in the sauce."

alright I can get behind this then. I concede.

Thanks, sorry for saying some mean things.

---

"A man with no sauce is lost.

<p style="text-align:center;">But that same man can get lost in the sauce."

Your point?


1. Brandon Graham being a FP is iffy because several of his workouts came from his proday and not only that I don't understand how he can be a FP with the numbers he posted. The whole logic behind FP is dumb to me. It's a nice tool but no the end all be all. Chris Smith was a FP too.


2. Doesn't change the fact that there plenty of pass rushers who are tops in the league who are not FPs.

The point is that its logically incongruent to draw a line between where someone was drafted and their skill level and then question the guy who drafted him at that spot.

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Thanks, sorry for saying some mean things.

Yeah its fine. Its an anonymous message board for a 3-13 small market football team my guy theres really no sense in feeling any sort of way about anything besides straight up trolling, its just harmless discussions.


I still dont think any of this happens though just purely based on the thinking that coaches generally go in with. Cause were not the only ones that will bet on fowler or be overly excited about yannicks first season and you know the coaches will bet on themselves to be able to make them better. These guys have the idea of draft and develop in their head and theyre the ones that invested in them they dont give up and/or downplay guys like this. Where the other starter comes from i dont know but one of em is on the roster imo.

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and thats not even just a jags thing. If anyone drafted Fowler 3rd overall theyd do the same thing for at least another year before downgrading him.

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I don't even get what the ultimate disagreement with the people arguing with Vino is. Are you trying to say we shouldn't be looking to bring another stud edge in? 

 

No matter what you think of the trajectory of Yannick and Dante we should all want at least one more good DE bought or drafted. 

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Yeah its fine. Its an anonymous message board for a 3-13 small market football team my guy theres really no sense in feeling any sort of way about anything besides straight up trolling, its just harmless discussions.


I still dont think any of this happens though just purely based on the thinking that coaches generally go in with. Cause were not the only ones that will bet on fowler or be overly excited about yannicks first season and you know the coaches will bet on themselves to be able to make them better. These guys have the idea of draft and develop in their head and theyre the ones that invested in them they dont give up and/or downplay guys like this. Where the other starter comes from i dont know but one of em is on the roster imo.

Well I would generally agree if the same people were pulling the trigger but because Coughlin is the one in charge and he is not tied to any of the past regime's moves I think we move in with a blank slate and he will look at it like I am. I think this is why Shad wanted to bring Coughlin in in the first place. He didn't want to necessarily fire Dave but he also didn't want him being the one making the final decisions on football operations anymore, and needed someone who would be unbiased in his evaluation of fixing the roster.

 

The point is that its logically incongruent to draw a line between where someone was drafted and their skill level and then question the guy who drafted him at that spot.

I can agree and disagree with Dave on things. For one, I would not have drafted Fowler 3rd overall in the first place, but I can see why he did.

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"A man with no sauce is lost.

<p style="text-align:center;">But that same man can get lost in the sauce."

I don't even get what the ultimate disagreement with the people arguing with Vino is. Are you trying to say we shouldn't be looking to bring another stud edge in? 

 

No matter what you think of the trajectory of Yannick and Dante we should all want at least one more good DE bought or drafted. 

Exactly. And furthermore, Allen is not the same type of conventional edge rusher as Fowler and Ngakoue. Allen would be our Michael Bennet/big end and would replace Odrick. We would move him inside on pass downs most of the time and Fowler or Ngakoue would come in and replace him at DE. It also opens up the opportunity to have packages where JPP, Malik, Allen, and Ngakoue are the four down lineman and we rush Fowler standing up from the A-gap like he did at Florida and how Houston uses Mercilus. 

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"A man with no sauce is lost.

<p style="text-align:center;">But that same man can get lost in the sauce."

Exactly. And furthermore, Allen is not the same type of conventional edge rusher as Fowler and Ngakoue. Allen would be our Michael Bennet/big end and would replace Odrick. We would move him inside on pass downs most of the time and Fowler or Ngakoue would come in and replace him at DE. It also opens up the opportunity to have packages where JPP, Malik, Allen, and Ngakoue are the four down lineman and we rush Fowler standing up from the A-gap like he did at Florida and how Houston uses Mercilus. 

My ideal would be to bring in JPP and as I've said before bulk Dante up to be an improved Ryan Davis inside DPR. They are extremely similar athletically, and as everyone knows DT is what Dante played as a freshman at UF. Then we could take Adams or Hooker to make our secondary terrifying also.

 

Yannick/Malik/Fowler/JPP would be a great nickel dline I think.

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I don't even get what the ultimate disagreement with the people arguing with Vino is. Are you trying to say we shouldn't be looking to bring another stud edge in?


No matter what you think of the trajectory of Yannick and Dante we should all want at least one more good DE bought or drafted.

Him saying Yannick sucked against the run (just because he wasnt good in this area doesnt mean he was a black hole which he is suggesting), that Fowler is going to be so much better than him next year even though if hed watch the tape of Fowler and Yannick hed see just how far behind he is from Yannick, and his whole "I watch tape so my OPINION is right and everyone else is wrong," narrative.


Guess what? Just because you watch the game tape doesnt mean you know how to break it down or know what to look for. On top of that he constantly says one guy is going to improve leaps and bounds yet the other player (who is almost a year younger btw) is a lost cause in a facet of his game.


Its quite hilarious.


Im all for bringing in as many edge rushers as possible though. Our pass rush wasnt good enough on a consistent basis to think otherwise. But thats what happens when you rely on two rookie edges.

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So you disagree about the diagnosis, but agree about the prescription. That seems copacetic enough to me. 

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Fowler should start because of where he was drafted and this being the year he's to establish himself as the starter

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THERE IS A SKELETON INSIDE OF YOU.

 

RIGHT NOW. THIS IS NOT A JOKE.

'This fanbase' has got to be the stupidest and most misused phrase on this board.


Apparently 'this fanbase' = SOME posters

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Yannick sets Jags rookie sack record but apparently can't get better.... got it.


I want Allen and JPP this offseason but to suggest Yannick can't get better after his rookie year is dumb. Whether is against the run or pass.

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Seems more like you're seriously underrating Ngakoue, actually. 

 

 

Agreed. Ngakoue should most definitely be starting.


 

With Ngakoue, Malik and the the twin boulders Roy Miller III and Abry Jones rotating at NT, the Jaguars DL is pretty much set. The lone question is who is playing LDE, and I'm thinking Fowler can handle the spot.


 

Ngakoue has the makings of a future stud pass rusher. Granted he still has some work to do on his run game so he can play every down, but by no means is he merely a designated pass rusher. I can see Ngakoue in the Pro Bowl down the road.

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'02

Ngakoue won't get much better against the run than he is, and the only way for him to really shine is to minimize his role, the more he plays the more he will get exposed especially if we change schemes and he is asked to produce against the run more. But you will all see in time.

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"A man with no sauce is lost.

<p style="text-align:center;">But that same man can get lost in the sauce."

Jamal Adams

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