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The Real Marty · 12-31-2014, 09:48 AM

Quote:where did i call joeckel a bust?

monroe got us colvin and chris smith

and esentially if we kept monroe and our 2013 pick pans out, we have a legit LT, maybe a DE for the future and the pro bowl lb you speak of.

We couldn't keep Monroe because he was a free agent at the end of the year. We traded the last 12 games of his contract. That was all we traded away.

SuperJville · 12-31-2014, 09:50 AM

Quote:We couldn't keep Monroe because he was a free agent at the end of the year. We traded the last 12 games of his contract. That was all we traded away.

While this is true, and hindsight is 20/20, it would probably have been better for us to go hard after re-signing Monroe (now that we know Luke has been terrible).

jaglawyer · 12-31-2014, 10:11 AM

Monroe made it clear he was not going to resign in Jacksonville and Caldwell was not going to use the franchise tag in the midst of a complete rebuild. With these facts in mind I've never understood the constant criticism of this trade.

"I'm not mad, I'm proud of you. You took your first pinch like a man and you learn two great things in your life. Look at me, never rat on your friends and always keep your mouth shut." - Jimmy Conway

SuperJville · 12-31-2014, 10:52 AM

Quote:Monroe made it clear he was not going to resign in Jacksonville and Caldwell was not going to use the franchise tag in the midst of a complete rebuild. With these facts in mind I've never understood the constant criticism of this trade.

I call bullcrap.

Show me where Monroe made it clear he's not going to re-sign.

Don't worry, I know you can't show me because you just made it up

JAGFAN88 · 12-31-2014, 11:01 AM

Joekel basicly was a rookiee LT this year coming off a injury that he had to rehab all offseason and not strength train. He played like a rookiee not even a good rookiee. I still would like to see what he can do with an offseason of weight and strength training to go along with more training from a Offensive line coach who was not here all this year. I think he gets better with a full off season of training and learning.

ukjag34 · 12-31-2014, 11:02 AM

Quote:I call [BAD WORD REMOVED].

Show me where Monroe made it clear he's not going to re-sign.

Don't worry, I know you can't show me because you just made it up

lawyered

this is the key point to me and we can never know

Was Monroe going to resign?

If not the trade was the right thing to do

added per pff they have both sunk it up pretty bad this year

SpeedyG · 12-31-2014, 11:29 AM

Quote:Before we touch on his own personal status and history as a player, let's first review the rest of the 2013 first round to see how Caldwell could have done better.

Seriously, anyone who thinks Caldwell could have made a considerably better pick (without using the gift of hindsight) is fooling themselves. Now onto what Luke has done since coming here.

Modified quote just to make the post more concise. Honestly, Ansah and Star were the two most logical picks for us. Star was, almost universally, thought to be the best player in this draft for the entire year. If not for the medical question, his play has shown him to be a stud. Now the question with Star is...what did our medical team think of him? Obviously, if Dave was told by team doctors that Star will have long-term issues, then it's not on Dave. If he was told that Star is "good to go" and still passed on him, then it is on Dave. Without knowing either case, we can't pin the "blame".

Now as for Ansah...personally, he was my pick. I wouldn't have been the only one either, and even Oesher had him mocked to us. It made perfect sense to me. Why? Ziggy met pretty much all the metrics of a LEO. Yes, he was raw. But I mentioned this back then on why I felt he would have been the pick leading to the draft. Think about Bradley's philosophy.

"Get better"

Doesn't it make sense that a coach whose focus is on getting players to improve on a daily basis been the PERFECT coach for a player with tons of ability but needed to...well, get better every day?

SpeedyG · 12-31-2014, 11:30 AM

Quote:Joekel basicly was a rookiee LT this year coming off a injury that he had to rehab all offseason and not strength train. He played like a rookiee not even a good rookiee. I still would like to see what he can do with an offseason of weight and strength training to go along with more training from a Offensive line coach who was not here all this year. I think he gets better with a full off season of training and learning.

I didn't realize that knee injuries prevented players from improving their upper body strength...

JAGFAN88 · 12-31-2014, 11:38 AM

Quote:I didn't realize that knee injuries prevented players from improving their upper body strength...

I didnt realize he had a knee injury, thanks for updating. He did however have a broken ankle, and im not an expert on those things so i dont know what rehab was like. I just said what was reported that he could not train in the offseason because of the ankle and rehabing it. And he will get a full offseason this season to strength train and learning the position at a NFL level. And hopefully get the Oline coach back to help teach him.

MalabarJag · 12-31-2014, 11:39 AM

As some others have pointed out:

1. The Monroe trade netted the Jags Colvin and Chris Smith, not Telvin Smith. More importantly, it was for 4th and 5th round picks. That Caldwell subsequently turned those picks into good players is irrelevant. A good starting NFL LT is worth a lot more than two third day picks. Caldwell took the first offer for Monroe, and no doubt could have gotten a better deal had he shopped Monroe to the other 30 teams.

2. Also, Monroe spoke of plans to stay in Jax, so there is no reason to believe he wouldn't have re-signed had he not been traded. Claiming that he would have been lost after 2013 is pure speculation, and the scant evidence points in the opposite direction.

3. While picking a better player at #2 would have been unlikely, there was good value in the middle of the first round and the Jags could have traded down. Miami traded up into the very next pick. There is no way you can convince me they wouldn't have been willing to give the same trade for the #2 pick that they made for the #3 pick. Using your list there were some very good players available at Miami's 12th slot (Richardson went 13th), and the extra #2 could have been Le'Veon Bell. If Caldwell was shrewd enough to see that the 2014 draft was going to be much better, he could easily have gotten Miami's 2014 #2 instead of the 2013 #2.

My impression of Caldwell so far is that he is very good at picking the best players, but makes no effort in contacting other teams for trades unless he wants to trade up. The Monroe trade talks were initiated by Baltimore. Whether he made the right coaching choice in Gus is still up in the air.

"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

FgallosJAGS · 12-31-2014, 11:40 AM

Quote:Before we touch on his own personal status and history as a player, let's first review the rest of the 2013 first round to see how Caldwell could have done better.

1. KC Fisher OT - I remember being surprised they took Fisher over Joeckel. They did it for athleticism and size over pedigree and production and his level of play right now is suffering. I'm glad KC took him instead of us, we got the better end of the deal.

2. JAX Joeckel OT - More on our boy later.

3. MIA Jordan DE/OLB - I really wanted Jordan before the draft for our LEO role but we might have dodged a bullet here. However, he has been horribly mismanaged by the Dolphins' staff. He was a do-it-all freak athlete as an OLB. But they tried to make him a four down DE, which he didn't have the strength for. He used PEDs to try to get stronger and got banned for it. His short-term career with the Phins is in doubt.

4. PHI Johnson OT - So far the best performer out of the top three OTs due to athleticism and scheme, although he did take a hit for PED use as well. Could possibly make an argument he should have been the pick, but you'd have to use hindsight (which isn't fair to anyone).

5. DET Ansah DE - I think this is probably the most viable prospect to be proposed instead of Luke. He fits the LEO role, is an athletic marvel, and has been consistently productive for the Lions. In Dave's defense, though, he was extremely raw coming out, especially at a position renowned for first-round busts.

6. CLE Mingo OLB - Has struggled to make an impact behind Sheard and Kruger. I was always kinda sketched out by this guy so I'm not really surprised. (Love his name though)

7. ARI Cooper OG - Actually has some similarities with Luke in that he missed his first year and spent an offseason rehabbing instead of improving. I think he will be fine long-term though.

8. STL Austin WR - Wasn't even the best wide receiver last year and has had struggles due to a QB issue and a lack of physical tools.

9. NYJ Milliner CB - Has consistently struggled, faced benchings, and injuries over his first two years, although he could possibly be turning the corner this offseason (remains to be seen due to the organizational changes up there though)

10. TEN Warmack OG - He's played at a consistently upper tier level, but has also been plagued by penalties. He and Lewan should be pretty strong going forward, however.

11. SD Fluker OT - Has stuck at RT and been punishing in the run game and sufficient in the pass pro. A solid pick.

12. OAK Hayden CB - Has all the tools but has been completely hampered by injuries. Complete waste so far but still some hope if he recovers.

13. NYJ Richardson DL - Absolute stud. No one thought he would be this good. In hindsight he would also compete for our 2 pick but we aren't going by hindsight.

14. CAR Star (can't spell his last name) DL - Also playing extremely well. Had some medical concerns leading up to the draft, but this is about his value, I think.

15. NO Vaccarro DB - Played well his first season but regressed a bit this year, probably due to some issues with his defense's pass rush.

16. BUF Manuel QB - Complete bust. If he can't do something this year he's done.

17. PITT Jones LB - Another guy I liked before the draft, but he has struggled to make the field due to injuries and performance.

18. SF Reid DB - Played consistently solid this year and lost. Not fantastic but not terrible.

19. NYG Pugh OG - Struggled at tackle then was kicked to guard and has been solid, not that great.

20. CHI Long OG - Did extremely well his first year and to my knowledge has maintained that level of play this year. Good pick.

21. CIN Eifert TE - Didn't do much his first year but has been better this year. Definitely the best tight end from this class. Solid pick.

22. ATL Trufant CB - Slam dunk pick. One of the best DBs in the NFL regardless of age or position. Really great job.

23. MIN Floyd DT - Fell massively on draft day, and now it's easy to see why. His short arms are a major concern still and he never figured out how to take on a double-team.

24. IND Werner DE - Struggled last year but has developed into an effective 34 OLB. Well done by them.

25. MIN Rhodes CB - Has been a consistently effective man corner and should continue to do well.

26. GB Jones DL - Hasn't really made an impact, not a very solid pick IMO. He's maxed out physically and never had great athleticism, especially for their defense.

27. HOU Hopkins WR - Excellent value here. Has developed into a fantastic 2 and could be their 1 when Andre finally calls it a career. This guy will be a Jag killer for a while.

28. DEN Williams DT - Has almost zero playing time his first two years, due to a lack of skill and strength of competition.

29. MIN Patterson WR - Has pretty much lived up to his pre-draft billing as an immensely talented receiver with questionable motivation.

30. STL Ogletree OLB - This extremely athletic linebacker has played well for the Rams as a part of an immensely talented, if underachieving, front seven.

31. DAL Frederick C - Though I literally laughed at this pick, it proved to be a good one. Frederick has been one of the best centers in the league and is a big part of a Dallas O line that is currently the best in the world.

32. BAL Elam S - Has been a consistent though not superb SS in Ed Reed's absence.

So, what was the point of that?

Look at that first round. The top ten is a mess outside of Warmack, Ansah, and Fluker. The entire round is full of disappointments. Caldwell was at the top of the draft, took a player that was universally (with the apparent exception of KC) appraised as the best player in the draft and took him. IMO the only other pick that would have made sense was Ziggy Ansah, and he was an incredible risk, too much so for a first-year GM.

Seriously, anyone who thinks Caldwell could have made a considerably better pick (without using the gift of hindsight) is fooling themselves. Now onto what Luke has done since coming here.

He spent his first NFL offseason at a position that is, despite what message board GMs tell you, quite different than his natural one. Then, after four games, he was switched back to his natural position for a quarter, where he shined before going out with an injury.

Now before we move on - the Monroe trade was not a bad one by Caldwell. I think it might be (second to netting our long-term center off of Gabbert) his craftiest move since being here. Why? He had an above average player on the left side who he was almost surely going to be unable to re-sign (Monroe), with a rookie with higher upside playing out of position to accommodate him (Luke). He saw an opportunity to get picks out of a player who otherwise would've gotten us nothing. So he made the trade, and invested in the future of this franchise... picks that eventually netted us two of our brightest young defensive stars, Telvin and Colvin.

Now about Joeckel himself. He still hasn't had a full season of improving as an LT in the NFL. He has phenomenal athleticism and foot technique for his size. He will spend this offseason doing what he needs, and has wanted to do, which is getting stronger and working on hand placement. People who know a lot more about tackle in the NFL than I (Matt Miller and Boselli come to mind) think this kid will be fine. I defer to them.

So stop getting your panties in a wad and realize that the acquisition of Joeckel was one of the first successes of this organization.

TLDR: Joeckel was the only reasonable pick to make at our 2013 first round pick, the Monroe trade was a brilliant move, and Joeckel finally has time and ability to develop into one of the league's better left tackles. Stop whining and be patient.

I would just like to point out how happy I am you made this post. I noted a couple weeks ago how bad this draft actually was. The first round was a mess. Their was no way around this for Dave. Luke was highly touted, and we needed an OT. Lucky for us basically everyone else has been a bust thus far. Lets just go with what we got in Luke.

We Believe In Victory..

JAGFAN88 · 12-31-2014, 11:44 AM

Quote:As some others have pointed out:

1. The Monroe trade netted the Jags Colvin and Chris Smith, not Telvin Smith. More importantly, it was for 4th and 5th round picks. That Caldwell subsequently turned those picks into good players is irrelevant. A good starting NFL LT is worth a lot more than two third day picks. Caldwell took the first offer for Monroe, and no doubt could have gotten a better deal had he shopped Monroe to the other 30 teams.

2. Also, Monroe spoke of plans to stay in Jax, so there is no reason to believe he wouldn't have re-signed had he not been traded. Claiming that he would have been lost after 2013 is pure speculation, and the scant evidence points in the opposite direction.

3. While picking a better player at #2 would have been unlikely, there was good value in the middle of the first round and the Jags could have traded down. Miami traded up into the very next pick. There is no way you can convince me they wouldn't have been willing to give the same trade for the #2 pick that they made for the #3 pick. Using your list there were some very good players available at Miami's 12th slot (Richardson went 13th), and the extra #2 could have been Le'Veon Bell. If Caldwell was shrewd enough to see that the 2014 draft was going to be much better, he could easily have gotten Miami's 2014 #2 instead of the 2013 #2.

My impression of Caldwell so far is that he is very good at picking the best players, but makes no effort in contacting other teams for trades unless he wants to trade up. The Monroe trade talks were initiated by Baltimore. Whether he made the right coaching choice in Gus is still up in the air.

Getting more then a penut butter sammach for Gabbert pretty much negates your whole argument. Anyone who could have made that trade is a very good GM. :teehee:

MalabarJag · 12-31-2014, 12:00 PM

Quote:Getting more then a penut butter sammach for Gabbert pretty much negates your whole argument. Anyone who could have made that trade is a very good GM. :teehee:

I didn't say he made bad trades, just that he didn't initiate them except to trade up in the draft.

But I might be wrong in that case. Did Caldwell initiate that trade, or the 49ers?

"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

flgatorsandjags · 12-31-2014, 12:03 PM

Quote:Getting more then a penut butter sammach for Gabbert pretty much negates your whole argument. Anyone who could have made that trade is a very good GM. :teehee:

that was a steal, highway robbery by Caldwell. A starting center for Gabbert, haha

JAGFAN88 · 12-31-2014, 12:08 PM

Quote:that was a steal, highway robbery by Caldwell. A starting center for Gabbert, haha

I know right? and lets take it a bit further if we dont get Trestman and we get Roman, It is entirely possible to have ROman bring in one of his guys who knows his system to help our players learn it. A veteran FA QB who knows Romans system, could it be Gabbert as a backup to BB5, so we would have gotten a starting center for nothing. :teehee: :teehee:

JAGFAN88 · 12-31-2014, 12:09 PM

Quote:I didn't say he made bad trades, just that he didn't initiate them except to trade up in the draft.

But I might be wrong in that case. Did Caldwell initiate that trade, or the 49ers?

Not sure who initiated it.

Billycool Jag · 12-31-2014, 12:12 PM

Quote:I didn't realize that knee injuries prevented players from improving their upper body strength...

Is that a serious comment? Of course, leg injuries greatly hinder the development of upper body strength

flgatorsandjags · 12-31-2014, 12:17 PM

Quote:I know right? and lets take it a bit further if we dont get Trestman and we get Roman, It is entirely possible to have ROman bring in one of his guys who knows his system to help our players learn it. A veteran FA QB who knows Romans system, could it be Gabbert as a backup to BB5, so we would have gotten a starting center for nothing. :teehee: :teehee:

if we get Roman I thin Michael Crabtree is a real possibility. When Crabtree is healthy he is a top 10 we imo. The 49ers are a much better team with Crabtree

trunt87 · 12-31-2014, 12:23 PM

Quote:I didnt realize he had a knee injury, thanks for updating. He did however have a broken ankle, and im not an expert on those things so i dont know what rehab was like. I just said what was reported that he could not train in the offseason because of the ankle and rehabing it. And he will get a full offseason this season to strength train and learning the position at a NFL level. And hopefully get the Oline coach back to help teach him.

Considering he broke it 5 games in I can pretty much guarantee that he had plenty of time to bulk up for this season. 9 ish months for a broken ankle? Come on now.

jagherd · 12-31-2014, 12:42 PM

Quote:Did Eifert even play this year?

No. He played in the 1st half of the very first game vs the Ravens. He got injured (broken arm and shoulder problems) in that game. He missed the entire season,, and his arm is still in a big sling.

Although, during preseason, camp, and even in that first game he looks to be a future TE stud (receiving). He got a lot of targets and gets open frequently. He's much better than Jermaine Gresham. We'll see if he can become that guy after this injury.