Given that at the time Joeckel was (at least ostensibly) the best lineman available, what else was Dave supposed to do? The man doesn't have a 'crystal ball' to see how someone is going to do in the future, nor is he able to predict injuries. Keeping in mind that Joeckel  was hamstrung with an injury his first season and rather than working on developing size and strength he spent most of that time rehabbing. This off season will be his first opportunity after having a full pro season to work on those issues.

 

Nevertheless, as others on here have already said, his performance for a high round draft pick has been pretty discouraging this season. I'm not sure what the answer is, but if he doesn't play it sure makes him look like a bust pick for Dave. On the other hand... if he has another season like this past one, it will tend to reinforce the growing opinion on this board that he is a high round draft bust and he really needs to be moved to more of a backup player status. The o-line just isn't the place for anyone unless they're one big, bad, mamma jamma!

 

On a side note:

I've observed that some GM's pick physically smaller linesmen in the belief that they are able to make up for the lack of mass with speed. Maybe; but I think it's probably easier for a really big man to get somewhat faster by becoming more efficient with his moves than it is for a smaller guy to get physically stronger to compensate for a difference in size. I kind'a think it's like internal combustion engines; there is no replacement for displacement... 

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I y'ams who I y'ams and thats all I y'ams...

Is that a serious comment? Of course, leg injuries greatly hinder the development of upper body strength

 

Enlighten us, please.

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Enlighten us, please.

K, you were serious.......maybe one of the dumbest things I've ever read on the internet, but you're certainly entitled to your opinion

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K, you were serious.......maybe one of the dumbest things I've ever read on the internet, but you're certainly entitled to your opinion

 

He asked you to elaborate. We're willing to learn here. Maybe you have vast experience in upper body development, but the majority of posters on this board don't. 
I think we non-lifters would all like to know how a leg injury impedes upper body development.

 

One certainly can bench press without using one's legs, and I've seen many photos of paraplegics with massive upper body development. His comment was far from the dumbest thing I've ever read on the internet ... or on this board ... or just in the last day.

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"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

its hard to attract good players to jacksonville and we traded our best first round pick in forever for scraps and only to end up with joeckel. 

i still hope he pans out but you just dont trade players that actually develops.  now instead of having a solid LT for the next 5-7 years its another position of need if joeckel keeps struggling.

 

sure we couldve drafted a bust at another position but we would still have an LT

Telvin and Colvin are scraps?

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K, you were serious.......maybe one of the dumbest things I've ever read on the internet, but you're certainly entitled to your opinion

 

So educate me then. I would LOVE for you to prove me wrong how it is impossible to improve upper body strength while nursing an ankle/foot injury.

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Great post Kodiak.  I've thought about this to myself but never put the time in to delve into it.  What a awful 1st round!

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I really like what Dave Caldwell has done so far.  He's had a clear plan from day 1, a plan in which I agreed with, and he stuck to it.  However, trading Monroe for peanuts is the one thing I'm critical of him for doing.  This board thought Monroe was amazing before the trade and a bum after the trade.  Monroe is still an above average left tackle and is better than Joeckel has been to this point.

 

I liked Eric Fisher a lot more than Joeckel going into the draft, but I can't say I was disappointed with the selection.  I liked Joeckel more than Jordan and Ansah, who were the only other logical potential picks.  It's disappointing that Joeckel hasn't physically developed into an NFL body in his 2 years in the league and hasn't developed much of a punch.  I still think it was the right pick, barring a trade down,  which is almost always preferable, but seldom accomplished.

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While this is true, and hindsight is 20/20, it would probably have been better for us to go hard after re-signing Monroe (now that we know Luke has been terrible).

You would give up colvin and telvin, and pay an absurd amount to keep Monroe?  In hindsight, Caldwell nailed it.

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He asked you to elaborate. We're willing to learn here. Maybe you have vast experience in upper body development, but the majority of posters on this board don't. I think we non-lifters would all like to know how a leg injury impedes upper body development.

 

One certainly can bench press without using one's legs, and I've seen many photos of paraplegics with massive upper body development. His comment was far from the dumbest thing I've ever read on the internet ... or on this board ... or just in the last day.

One can build muscle, the way a paraplegic can, by doing plenty of bench-press work, curls, and other beach-body exercises, but to build the same sort of raw strength required to be an offensive lineman, you will need more than just exercises that mostly just isolate the arms and shoulders.  Deadlifts and cleans are generally required for linemen because, besides the indirect workout to the upper body that you get from deads and cleans, the development of the "posterior chain" is crucial in developing upper body strength.  I could continue at length on what I mistakenly thought was common knowledge for football fans (particularly those willing to take a public stand on offensive linemen strength training), but I'm going to guess that this will bore most of the board.

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1. The Monroe trade netted the Jags Colvin and Chris Smith, not Telvin Smith. More importantly, it was for 4th and 5th round picks. That Caldwell subsequently turned those picks into good players is irrelevant. A good starting NFL LT is worth a lot more than two third day picks. Caldwell took the first offer for Monroe, and no doubt could have gotten a better deal had he shopped Monroe to the other 30 teams.

How in the hell is that irrelevant!?!  That's the point in acquiring picks, especially when you have a compentent GM.  That's why teams value picks so much.  That's why Caldwell made the trade in the first place, to aqcuire picks for a team thant needed a talent injectionn.

 

2nd part:  You don't know that.

 

3rd, while people point out we traded him with only 12 games left without knowing we could resign him or not.  Well look at the money saved by not.  Now we have the opportunity this offseason to add another player thru FA with that money.  Monroe sucked it up this year in Balt.

 

What's better?

 

Monroe

 

or

 

Telvin+Colvin (or C.Smith dep on how you look at trades)+FA aqcuisition this year with money saved.

 

Thank you Caldwell, knocked this one out of the park!

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So educate me then. I would LOVE for you to prove me wrong how it is impossible to improve upper body strength while nursing an ankle/foot injury.

You are making it obvious you know nothing about working out.

 

No it's not impossible to improve strength, but having no use of your lower body cuts out a vast amount of critical exercises.

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So educate me then. I would LOVE for you to prove me wrong how it is impossible to improve upper body strength while nursing an ankle/foot injury.

Well, you can read my reply to Malabar for starters, then you can continue to find out what I refuse to believe that you don't already know, but are just being argumentative what you don't know by reading a book.

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One can build muscle, the way a paraplegic can, by doing plenty of bench-press work, curls, and other beach-body exercises, but to build the same sort of raw strength required to be an offensive lineman, you will need more than just exercises that mostly just isolate the arms and shoulders.  Deadlifts and cleans are generally required for linemen because, besides the indirect workout to the upper body that you get from deads and cleans, the development of the "posterior chain" is crucial in developing upper body strength.  I could continue at length on what I mistakenly thought was common knowledge for football fans (particularly those willing to take a public stand on offensive linemen strength training), but I'm going to guess that this will bore most of the board.

Exactly.  I currently have a broken ankle, and while i'm not training to block JJ Watt, my workouts are much less effective, to the point that i'm about to quit until i am better.

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One can build muscle, the way a paraplegic can, by doing plenty of bench-press work, curls, and other beach-body exercises, but to build the same sort of raw strength required to be an offensive lineman, you will need more than just exercises that mostly just isolate the arms and shoulders.  Deadlifts and cleans are generally required for linemen because, besides the indirect workout to the upper body that you get from deads and cleans, the development of the "posterior chain" is crucial in developing upper body strength.  I could continue at length on what I mistakenly thought was common knowledge for football fans (particularly those willing to take a public stand on offensive linemen strength training), but I'm going to guess that this will bore most of the board.

 

That's why they invented pull up bars.

 

Besides, a broken ankle is a 3 month injury usually... Someone motivated to improve upper body strength could have easily worked on those iso workouts and strengthened his back and core until his ankle was ready to endure more dynamic power explosion type exercises.  

 

You are making excuses.  

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That's why they invented pull up bars.

 

Besides, a broken ankle is a 3 month injury usually... Someone motivated to improve upper body strength could have easily worked on those iso workouts and strengthened his back and core until his ankle was ready to endure more dynamic power explosion type exercises.  

 

You are making excuses.  

He's not making excuses, he's being realistic.  That's how training goes. Sure he can mitigate, but he will not get what an offensive lineman needs out of workouts.

 

Ankle injury is 3 months until you are out of a boot and walking on your own.  Then, PT begins to strengthen the area.  It is much longer than 3 months until normal training can commence.

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That's why they invented pull up bars.

 

Besides, a broken ankle is a 3 month injury usually... Someone motivated to improve upper body strength could have easily worked on those iso workouts and strengthened his back and core until his ankle was ready to endure more dynamic power explosion type exercises.  

 

You are making excuses.  

LOL......a pull-up bar, really? In place of deadlifts and cleans, etc??....................Look, I'm not defending Joeckel.  If you guys want to make the case that his work ethic was lacking, or that he didn't do enough of what he could have done in the offseason, or that he just totally sucks, I'll take your word for it.  I'm just saying that it's a complete joke to suggest that upper-body training for an offensive linemen isn't greatly hindered by a broken ankle.  A massive joke.  If a poster doesn't know a lot about strength training, that's cool, but maybe that realization would be a good time to not offer a strong public opinion on that specific topic.

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One can build muscle, the way a paraplegic can, by doing plenty of bench-press work, curls, and other beach-body exercises, but to build the same sort of raw strength required to be an offensive lineman, you will need more than just exercises that mostly just isolate the arms and shoulders.  Deadlifts and cleans are generally required for linemen because, besides the indirect workout to the upper body that you get from deads and cleans, the development of the "posterior chain" is crucial in developing upper body strength.  I could continue at length on what I mistakenly thought was common knowledge for football fans (particularly those willing to take a public stand on offensive linemen strength training), but I'm going to guess that this will bore most of the board.

 

So basically, there was nothing preventing Luke from doing bench work and other upper body exercises to improve his upper body strength?

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LOL......a pull-up bar, really? In place of deadlifts and cleans, etc??....................Look, I'm not defending Joeckel.  If you guys want to make the case that his work ethic was lacking, or that he didn't do enough of what he could have done in the offseason, or that he just totally sucks, I'll take your word for it.  I'm just saying that it's a complete joke to suggest that upper-body training for an offensive linemen isn't greatly hindered by a broken ankle.  A massive joke.  If a poster doesn't know a lot about strength training, that's cool, but maybe that realization would be a good time to not offer a strong public opinion on that specific topic.

Correct answer.  End of arguement! (I hope)

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So basically, there was nothing preventing Luke from doing bench work and other upper body exercises to improve his upper body strength?

No.  And, I'd imagine he did what he could: some bench work, some military presses, and the little bit that he could do, etc.

 

Was that your shiny little point? Was that why you took the time to detour the thread in this manner, so that you could prove that, oh yes, he could have gotten some incremental improvement in upper body strength? If so, please explain how that in any way adds value in any manner, or detracts one iota from the post that you quoted and responded to that said that LJ would greatly benefit from a full off-season of strength training. The point is, and remains, that he did not get a full off-season of strength training last year because his injury hindered him from doing many of the strength-training exercises required of offensive linemen, other than the few handful of exercises that you so helpfully reminded us that he could still do, as if we didn't know that, and as if that is in any way relevant.

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