So. But what about the psychological affect it will have on the lineup. He was perhaps the best Cards hitter in the last 3/4 years. You know everybody in that clubhouse still believed in him after what he has done for that team in the past. How will they ever get through it? See how ridiculous that sounds? These are professional players. If a trade suddenly turned them into amateurs at the player they wouldn't have made this far into their career.

 

What psychological effect would there be of losing a player from a lineup that wasn't producing at that point anyway??? :confused: 

---

1. Craig was terrible this year. Terrible comparison.2. Every situation is different. I can look up offenses that nose-dived after losing their stud (whether to trade or injury), too. It wouldn't prove I'm right, just like showing offenses that did fine despite losing their studs would prove you right.

2. Exactly my point. One hitter (when he isn't even the best hitter) isn't going to break a team or lineup apart. That's silly. Baseball is a game of up and downs. They just happened to have a terrible stretch at the wrong time.


Kansas City and St. Louis had by far the worst offenses going into the playoffs, and look where they are now.

---

 

So. But what about the psychological affect it will have on the lineup. He was perhaps the best Cards hitter in the last 3/4 years. You know everybody in that clubhouse still believed in him after what he has done for that team in the past. How will they ever get through it? See how ridiculous that sounds? These are professional players. If a trade suddenly turned them into amateurs at the player they wouldn't have made this far into their career.

 
Every situation is different, and usually a player who was absolutely TERRIBLE this season is really hurting your credibility.

You know what you're talking about and I know what I'm talking about. Don't turn this into a circus by doing things like you did in the quoted post.

---

2. Exactly my point. One hitter (when he isn't even the best hitter) isn't going to break a team or lineup apart. That's silly. Baseball is a game of up and downs. They just happened to have a terrible stretch at the wrong time.


Kansas City and St. Louis had by far the worst offenses going into the playoffs, and look where they are now.

 

This doesn't make any sense. You can't compare a team losing arguably its MVP hitter from its lineup and the Cardinals losing Craig after 4 months of him being an absolute black hole in the lineup. 

---

 

2. Exactly my point. One hitter (when he isn't even the best hitter) isn't going to break a team or lineup apart. That's silly. Baseball is a game of up and downs. They just happened to have a terrible stretch at the wrong time.

Kansas City and St. Louis had by far the worst offenses going into the playoffs, and look where they are now.

 
The playoffs are a crapshoot based on randomness of small sample sizes. Let's not get off topic.

I'm not saying that it is the only thing that contributed to Oakland's woes. You keep reverting to that fallacy as if you want me to defend it. Saying it was 100% the reason for their offensive collapse is idiotic. So is saying that it was 0% related to their offensive woes, though, and that is what you are doing.

---

What psychological effect would there be of losing a player from a lineup that wasn't producing at that point anyway??? :confused:

<a class="bbc_url" href='http://m.mlb.com/news/article/87285920/departures-of-allen-craig-joe-kelly-hit-st-louis-cardinals-hard'>http://m.mlb.com/news/article/87285920/departures-of-allen-craig-joe-kelly-hit-st-louis-cardinals-hard</a>


The players aren't like the fans. The fans may have thought "well he sucks this year anyway, so we'll be fine". Do you think the players thought that way? Doubtful. They know how big he has been for them in the past and what he is capable of doing. You brought the psychological part into this, not me.

---

This doesn't make any sense. You can't compare a team losing arguably its MVP hitter from its lineup and the Cardinals losing Craig after 4 months of him being an absolute black hole in the lineup.

You are seriously overrating Cespedes to the point it's getting ridiculous.

<a class="bbc_url" href='http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?[BLEEP]=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2014&month=0&season1=2014&ind=0&team=10&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=18,d'>http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?[BLEEP]=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2014&month=0&season1=2014&ind=0&team=10&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=18,d</a>


Donaldson and Moss were by far their best hitters, with Cespedes a distant third.

---

 

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/87285920/d...inals-hard

The players aren't like the fans. The fans may have thought "well he sucks this year anyway, so we'll be fine". Do you think the players thought that way? Doubtful. They know how big he has been for them in the past and what he is capable of doing. You brought the psychological part into this, not me.

 
You're trolling at this point. It started off as a pretty nice discussion, but you've reverted to trolling for some reason.

---

You are seriously overrating Cespedes to the point it's getting ridiculous.

<a class="bbc_url" href='http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?[BLEEP]=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2014&month=0&season1=2014&ind=0&team=10&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=18,d'>http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?[BLEEP]=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2014&month=0&season1=2014&ind=0&team=10&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=18,d</a>


Donaldson and Moss were by far their best hitters, with Cespedes a distant third.

 

At the point they dealt Cespedes he was in the discussion for the A's MVP. 

---

The playoffs are a crapshoot based on randomness of small sample sizes. Let's not get off topic.I'm not saying that it is the only thing that contributed to Oakland's woes. You keep reverting to that fallacy as if you want me to defend it. Saying it was 100% the reason for their offensive collapse is idiotic. So is saying that it was 0% related to their offensive woes, though, and that is what you are doing.

I never said their offense would be the same without Cespedes. He was one of their better hitters, but they still had guys like Moss, Donaldson, Jaso, Reddick, Crisp and Norris to help soften the blow. Getting Lester was absolutely the right move, especially given how much Gray and Kazmir struggled down the stretch.

---

 

You are seriously overrating Cespedes to the point it's getting ridiculous.

=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2014&month=0&season1=2014&ind=0&team=10&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=18,d]http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?[BLEEP]=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2014&month=0&season1=2014&ind=0&team=10&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=18,d

Donaldson and Moss were by far their best hitters, with Cespedes a distant third.

Donaladson and Moss are both fastball hitting sluggers. They both saw a decrease in FB% after the Cespedes trade. Surely this has nothing to do with "protection", though, because "protection" is a myth.

---

 

Getting Lester was absolutely the right move, especially given how much Gray and Kazmir struggled down the stretch.

 

LOL, I love when people defend obviously bad moves, despite the obvious results/ evidence suggesting otherwise. 

 

 

No wonder you're a Jags fan...lol

---

LOL, I love when people defend obviously bad moves, despite the obvious results/ evidence suggesting otherwise. 

 

 

No wonder you're a Jags fan...lol

lol it was never a bad move. I guess it is to people who think Cespedes is some hitting god because he dominates the HR derby.

---

Donaladson and Moss are both fastball hitting sluggers. They both saw a decrease in FB% after the Cespedes trade. Surely this has nothing to do with "protection", though, because "protection" is a myth.

Protection is indeed a myth, good hitters are going to hit regardless. Stanton had Casey McGehee behind him most of the year and he had his best offensive season yet. McGehee did have a nice little season, but still.


I don't doubt you, but link?


I found something on Moss here. Was getting less fastballs, but it's not like he was chasing more pitches out of the strikezone either. <a class="bbc_url" href='http://www.baseballprof.com/2014/08/fantasy-roundup-brandon-moss-decline/'>http://www.baseballprof.com/2014/08/fantasy-roundup-brandon-moss-decline/</a>

---

Protection is indeed a myth, good hitters are going to hit regardless. Stanton had Casey McGehee behind him most of the year and he had his best offensive season yet. McGehee did have a nice little season, but still.


I don't doubt you, but link?


I found something on Moss here. Was getting less fastballs, but it's not like he was chasing more pitches out of the strikezone either. <a class="bbc_url" href='http://www.baseballprof.com/2014/08/fantasy-roundup-brandon-moss-decline/'>http://www.baseballprof.com/2014/08/fantasy-roundup-brandon-moss-decline/</a>

 

Again, can you please stop using isolated situations? I can cite situations where hitters performed worse when they lost the studs behind/in front of them. That does not prove me right. Citing isolated situations (Stanton) does not prove you right, either. Also, maybe Stanton has an even better year with stud behind him. We don't know.

 

It's all available on fangraphs.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statsd.aspx?pla...30&season=

http://www.fangraphs.com/statsd.aspx?pla...28&season=

 

 

So, you are on record saying that situational pitching and bullpen usage is not influenced at all by lineups? Just to be clear...

---

Regarding the MLB playoff format,   there's only one facet of it that I'm not comfortable with.   That's the 2nd Round being only the best 3 out of 5 games.  It should be the best 4 out of 7 games.   The better team will win noticeably more often if it's 4 out of 7 instead of 3 out of 5.   The one game 1st Round Wild Card matchups makes sense because it puts a much greater emphasis on the importance of winning your division.

---

Protection is indeed a myth, good hitters are going to hit regardless.

 

You honestly believe this???

 

Wow...

---

C'mon O's

---

LET'S GO!!!!!!!

---

Time for some Orioles Magic!

---