Yeah....you find the money to pay the pass rusher that's only going to be 24 years old...entering his prime. 

Getting rid of both safeties at the same time wouldn't be a great idea, but if it was the only way to keep Fowler, then I'd do it. 

He has better sack per snap numbers than Yannick and they're both getting better. If they both get new deals, we have two premier pass rushers for probably the next 5 years.

I don't believe in keeping strength at one position by potentially weakening two others. That's just not a good idea IMO.

First, while it isn't ideal to ger rid of both safeties at the same time, it is easier to find two good safeties than it is to find a good young pass rusher.

Secondly, if we had poor or inexperienced corners, I would be concerned about releasing both safeties.  But Ramsey and Bouye are the best CB tandem in the league.  They could handle the transition as well as anybody.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

wow! so many "What If's" in this thread...I would suspect that they try to negotiate a long term deal with Fowler rather than pick up the 5th year option with a front loaded contract  to ease the cap hit in following years...Then they start dumping aging free agents who are overpaid, or who are not performing as well...

And who might that be? If we signed him to an extension it would most likely be no lower than $12 million per year. Which overpriced free agents do we have, that we can cut $12 million from the cap without losing an integral part of the defense?

Dareus is $10.5 in 2019. Malik is $15. Calais is $14.5. I don't expect all 3 to be cut, but very likely Malik and/or Dareus could be gone.

Gipson is $9, Hayden is $7.5. 

Then there's is ASJ at $6.6, Parnell at $6. Plus we'll have $16 in roll over from this year and another $10ish boost from the cap increase. 

All players who could conceivably be cut next year, especially if Fowler develops more. We know Ngakoue is getting paid, but there's a way to keep Fowler if they want, and I believe it would make sense to pick up the option for insurance. The draft and development of young guys this year will go a long way towards reshaping the roster in 2019

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IT WAS ALWAYS THE JAGS

I think you simply let 2018 play out on the field (don't pick up the option) and the decision may become easier.
The money being spent on Dareus, Campbell and Jackson is prohibitive.  

The first and easiest way to help find a way to keep Fowler (and still re-sign the more obvious keepers of Jack/Ramsey/Ngakoue) is to move on from Dareus in 2019 when the "out" in his contract comes up.  
That likely means going all in on a run stuffing DT/NT in the 2019 draft (unless they surprise us and draft one next week.)
Campbell, who will be 33 by week one of the 2019 season, also has an out in his contract after this season.  Will he show any signs of father time nipping at his heels?  Does Smoot flash enough this year to give us confidence to move on?

There are just too many unanswered questions for me right now to want to deal Fowler away. I'd like to find a way to keep all of the contributing young players on this defense and I think saying goodbye to a vet (maybe two) and replacing them with draft picks may be all that is required.

Can we afford to lose Dareus? Look at how our run defense completely turned around once we picked him up. He fit like a glove. What if we let him leave and we strike out on drafting a NT to replace him. Do you really wanna go back to the run defense being a major weakness? Age or not, Campbell may have been our best defensive player in 2017. He had a career year and allowed Yannick to thrive as well. I certainly don't wanna get rid of him. That's not even an option in my eyes. I am not a fan of Smoot. IMO, that would be a huge downgrade. 

I don't wanna have to deal Fowler either, but it's time to pay the piper and I absolutely do not want to get rid of any of our defensive starters on the D-Line, linebacker or CB. I refuse to even allow that to be an option right now in my mind. Given the future cap situation, we have to make a decision. You simply don't just cut major contributing defensive veterans and replace them in the draft. You don't always find their replacements right away. Sometimes you strike out and end up worse off. Our defense is what carried us last season. As long as we have a QB who can't carry the team on his back, we need to have a top defense and that means keeping our starters as long as possible.

If you read my post a bit more thoroughly, I'm not advocating some return to a poor run defense as you suggest. I'm stating that the 2018 season may make moving on from either Dareus or Campbell more palatable if Dareus regresses or Campbell begins to show age. Beyond that - I also suggested going all in on a premier DT prospect on the 2019 draft. 
And this is not a personal slight or anything like that at all -  but you don't know jack squat about Dawuane Smoot yet. None of us do.  He may turn out to be at best a small drop off from Campbell - or at worst a nice rotation piece coupled with a high draft pick. 
Again - let's analyze this after another year of football. These decisions often have a way of becoming easier via player development, regression, or even injury (heaven forbid). Fowler could also make the decision easier by doing something stupid off the field again and incur suspension. 

No one wants to break up the line we have now, but if Fowler continues to improve (as he has done pretty steadily thus far) and Campbell starts to fade or Dareus reverts to his alleged lack of motivation/effort, you keep the ascending player and move on from the one declining. Replacing veterans with draft picks just has to happen fairly regularly to maintain a healthy cap.  Even if the vet has a couple of good years left. 

Another potential way to clear some money for keeping Fowler and the other 2nd contract players is to draft a stud FS this year or next. Gipson has a $9 million cap hit in 2019. Releasing him would clear 7.4 mil.  I thought Gip had an outstanding 2017 season and I don't want to move on from him either, at some point you need some more young players performing on a cheap rookie deal. We can't have 9 of our 11 starting defenders playing on big second (or third) contracts. It's not sustainable.

---

What if we traded 29, 2019 first and Fowler for the 5th pick?

---

Your beliefs become your thoughts,
Your thoughts become your words,
Your words become your actions,
Your actions become your habits,
Your habits become your values,
Your values become your destiny.

It's crucial we are able to manage our cap while keeping the defense strong. How do you do that? Well you have to keep the right positions to let go. I think we should let go these guys for 2019 (looking way too far ahead but whatever)

Dareus =No brained. Love him as a talent but his job is run defense and it's relatively easy to replicate that. Saves 9 million.

Church = Again, love Church and what he brings but I think you can replicate his skillset. Will be 31 in 2019. Saves 5.5 million

Gibson = His skillset is harder to find than Churches but same logic applies. Love want he brings but price is a bit much. Saves 7.4 million..

---

It's crucial we are able to manage our cap while keeping the defense strong. How do you do that? Well you have to keep the right positions to let go. I think we should let go these guys for 2019 (looking way too far ahead but whatever)

Dareus =No brained. Love him as a talent but his job is run defense and it's relatively easy to replicate that.  Saves 10 million.

Church = Again, love Church and what he brings but I think you can replicate his skillset. Will be 31 in 2019. Saves 5.5 million

Gibson = His skillset is harder to find than Churches but same logic applies. Love want he brings but 9 million is a bit much. Saves 9 million..

$7.4 mil is the  actual savings if you release Gipson in 2019. (1.6 mil in dead money)

---

What if we traded 29, 2019 first and Fowler for the 5th pick?

To take who? Nelson? Rosen? Mayfield? If the draft goes Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield, Nelson then what do we do? Please don't say Josh Allen...

---

It's crucial we are able to manage our cap while keeping the defense strong. How do you do that? Well you have to keep the right positions to let go. I think we should let go these guys for 2019 (looking way too far ahead but whatever)

Dareus =No brained. Love him as a talent but his job is run defense and it's relatively easy to replicate that.  Saves 10 million.

Church = Again, love Church and what he brings but I think you can replicate his skillset. Will be 31 in 2019. Saves 5.5 million

Gibson = His skillset is harder to find than Churches but same logic applies. Love want he brings but 9 million is a bit much. Saves 9 million..

$7.4 mil is the  actual savings if you release Gipson in 2019. (1.6 mil in dead money)

Thanks. I read Dareus's contract page twice by mistake

---

What if we traded 29, 2019 first and Fowler for the 5th pick?

To take who? Nelson? Rosen? Mayfield? If the draft goes Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield, Nelson then what do we do? Please don't say Josh Allen...

Just throwing out a hypothetical. Denver had Cambell inked but somehow he signed with us.

To answer your question, Chubb, Barkley, Allen would be the order if the draft went the way you stated above. Obviously that would be a worst case scenario for us.

I see the top10 going:

Brown's Barkley RB
Giants Chubb DE
Jets Mayfield QB
Brown's Darnold QB
Bills Rosen QB
clots Nelson OG
Bucs Vea DT
Bears Edwards OLB
49ers Smith ILB
Raiders Fitzpatrick CB
Dolphins Allen QB

I think the 5 hole is the next pick for sale.

---

Your beliefs become your thoughts,
Your thoughts become your words,
Your words become your actions,
Your actions become your habits,
Your habits become your values,
Your values become your destiny.

I don't believe in keeping strength at one position by potentially weakening two others. That's just not a good idea IMO.

First, while it isn't ideal to ger rid of both safeties at the same time, it is easier to find two good safeties than it is to find a good young pass rusher.

Secondly, if we had poor or inexperienced corners, I would be concerned about releasing both safeties.  But Ramsey and Bouye are the best CB tandem in the league.  They could handle the transition as well as anybody.

I don't believe this. Remember Jonathan Cyprien and Reggie Nelson? We were even discussing how small the number is of true Free Safeties in this draft, in another thread. There is a definite shortage of good Free Safeties in the NFL.

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And who might that be? If we signed him to an extension it would most likely be no lower than $12 million per year. Which overpriced free agents do we have, that we can cut $12 million from the cap without losing an integral part of the defense?

Dareus is $10.5 in 2019. Malik is $15. Calais is $14.5. I don't expect all 3 to be cut, but very likely Malik and/or Dareus could be gone.

Gipson is $9, Hayden is $7.5. 

Then there's is ASJ at $6.6, Parnell at $6. Plus we'll have $16 in roll over from this year and another $10ish boost from the cap increase. 

All players who could conceivably be cut next year, especially if Fowler develops more. We know Ngakoue is getting paid, but there's a way to keep Fowler if they want, and I believe it would make sense to pick up the option for insurance. The draft and development of young guys this year will go a long way towards reshaping the roster in 2019

Again, Dareus, Jackson and Campbell are all critical parts of the defense. Even considering cutting any of them is off the table as far as I'm concerned, until they show signs of severely slowing down. IMO, they are more important to this team than Fowler. Gipson is definitely an option, but it's no guarantee we'd find someone as good. Hayden should've never been signed IMO. We'll have to see how ASJ performs before I form an opinion on him and I'll have to see who we draft before I would want to cut Parnell. A lot depends on this draft.

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First, while it isn't ideal to ger rid of both safeties at the same time, it is easier to find two good safeties than it is to find a good young pass rusher.

Secondly, if we had poor or inexperienced corners, I would be concerned about releasing both safeties.  But Ramsey and Bouye are the best CB tandem in the league.  They could handle the transition as well as anybody.

I don't believe this. Remember Jonathan Cyprien and Reggie Nelson? We were even discussing how small the number is of true Free Safeties in this draft, in another thread. There is a definite shortage of good Free Safeties in the NFL.

I like Justin Reid Stanford.

---

Your beliefs become your thoughts,
Your thoughts become your words,
Your words become your actions,
Your actions become your habits,
Your habits become your values,
Your values become your destiny.

Can we afford to lose Dareus? Look at how our run defense completely turned around once we picked him up. He fit like a glove. What if we let him leave and we strike out on drafting a NT to replace him. Do you really wanna go back to the run defense being a major weakness? Age or not, Campbell may have been our best defensive player in 2017. He had a career year and allowed Yannick to thrive as well. I certainly don't wanna get rid of him. That's not even an option in my eyes. I am not a fan of Smoot. IMO, that would be a huge downgrade. 

I don't wanna have to deal Fowler either, but it's time to pay the piper and I absolutely do not want to get rid of any of our defensive starters on the D-Line, linebacker or CB. I refuse to even allow that to be an option right now in my mind. Given the future cap situation, we have to make a decision. You simply don't just cut major contributing defensive veterans and replace them in the draft. You don't always find their replacements right away. Sometimes you strike out and end up worse off. Our defense is what carried us last season. As long as we have a QB who can't carry the team on his back, we need to have a top defense and that means keeping our starters as long as possible.

If you read my post a bit more thoroughly, I'm not advocating some return to a poor run defense as you suggest. I'm stating that the 2018 season may make moving on from either Dareus or Campbell more palatable if Dareus regresses or Campbell begins to show age. Beyond that - I also suggested going all in on a premier DT prospect on the 2019 draft. 
And this is not a personal slight or anything like that at all -  but you don't know jack squat about Dawuane Smoot yet. None of us do.  He may turn out to be at best a small drop off from Campbell - or at worst a nice rotation piece coupled with a high draft pick. 
Again - let's analyze this after another year of football. These decisions often have a way of becoming easier via player development, regression, or even injury (heaven forbid). Fowler could also make the decision easier by doing something stupid off the field again and incur suspension. 

No one wants to break up the line we have now, but if Fowler continues to improve (as he has done pretty steadily thus far) and Campbell starts to fade or Dareus reverts to his alleged lack of motivation/effort, you keep the ascending player and move on from the one declining. Replacing veterans with draft picks just has to happen fairly regularly to maintain a healthy cap.  Even if the vet has a couple of good years left. 

Another potential way to clear some money for keeping Fowler and the other 2nd contract players is to draft a stud FS this year or next. Gipson has a $9 million cap hit in 2019. Releasing him would clear 7.4 mil.  I thought Gip had an outstanding 2017 season and I don't want to move on from him either, at some point you need some more young players performing on a cheap rookie deal. We can't have 9 of our 11 starting defenders playing on big second (or third) contracts. It's not sustainable.

What if Campbell and Dareus continue to shine? What then? I can see moving on from Gipson. I have acknowledged that, but Nkokoue and Jack will be looking for extensions as well. To me, the easiest fix is finding a way to draft Mason Rudolph, so we can wipe Bortles' salary from the book in 2019 that would save a ton of money.

---

What if we traded 29, 2019 first and Fowler for the 5th pick?

I'd do it in a heartbeat.

---

What if we traded 29, 2019 first and Fowler for the 5th pick?

To take who? Nelson? Rosen? Mayfield? If the draft goes Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield, Nelson then what do we do? Please don't say Josh Allen...

No to Josh Allen. I think one of those QB's falls to #5 and if they don't, we trade back down and possibly add a 2019 first round pick with some team that does want Allen.

---

If you read my post a bit more thoroughly, I'm not advocating some return to a poor run defense as you suggest. I'm stating that the 2018 season may make moving on from either Dareus or Campbell more palatable if Dareus regresses or Campbell begins to show age. Beyond that - I also suggested going all in on a premier DT prospect on the 2019 draft. 
And this is not a personal slight or anything like that at all -  but you don't know jack squat about Dawuane Smoot yet. None of us do.  He may turn out to be at best a small drop off from Campbell - or at worst a nice rotation piece coupled with a high draft pick. 
Again - let's analyze this after another year of football. These decisions often have a way of becoming easier via player development, regression, or even injury (heaven forbid). Fowler could also make the decision easier by doing something stupid off the field again and incur suspension. 

No one wants to break up the line we have now, but if Fowler continues to improve (as he has done pretty steadily thus far) and Campbell starts to fade or Dareus reverts to his alleged lack of motivation/effort, you keep the ascending player and move on from the one declining. Replacing veterans with draft picks just has to happen fairly regularly to maintain a healthy cap.  Even if the vet has a couple of good years left. 

Another potential way to clear some money for keeping Fowler and the other 2nd contract players is to draft a stud FS this year or next. Gipson has a $9 million cap hit in 2019. Releasing him would clear 7.4 mil.  I thought Gip had an outstanding 2017 season and I don't want to move on from him either, at some point you need some more young players performing on a cheap rookie deal. We can't have 9 of our 11 starting defenders playing on big second (or third) contracts. It's not sustainable.

What if Campbell and Dareus continue to shine? What then? I can see moving on from Gipson. I have acknowledged that, but Nkokoue and Jack will be looking for extensions as well. To me, the easiest fix is finding a way to draft Mason Rudolph, so we can wipe Bortles' salary from the book in 2019 that would save a ton of money.

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Then you keep them and figure it out af that point. We're not saying to cut anybody today. We're saying hypothetically we could move on from some of those guys IF others develop this year. 

I understand your viewpoint of wanting to keep them, and they likely scenario is they are still some of our top performers this year. But you're not acknowledging the possibility that Fowler becomes just as integral to this line as someone else. 

You can't throw your hypotheticals out there without even acknowledging the opposite is possible. We have this whole year to determine which direction to go.

My argument is pick up the option just in case he has a great year. If he doesn't, then cut/trade him. If he does, the option year might be cheaper than his contract extension. Just like with Blake, you can't live in fear of the injury causing a guarantee.

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IT WAS ALWAYS THE JAGS

What's the least amount you'd trade him for this offseason.

A 2nd rounder. That's more than we'd get from a compensatory pick, but I'd start out demanding a first rounder and act like I'd take nothing less to see if I got any takers.

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DANTE FOWLER IS 23 YEARS OLD !!!

So?

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I ask this all the time...Every guy we draft that turns out good, someone wants to trade him

Because on top of that drafting, we signed high priced free agents who outperformed the guy we drafted and we can't keep everyone. That's just a fact.

agreed, thats why you draft young guys to replace older players, or players that are not performing as well as they should...If they pick up his 5th year option, they can still cut him or they can negotiate a long term deal with or without picking it up while a rookie is waiting in the wings...

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If you read my post a bit more thoroughly, I'm not advocating some return to a poor run defense as you suggest. I'm stating that the 2018 season may make moving on from either Dareus or Campbell more palatable if Dareus regresses or Campbell begins to show age. Beyond that - I also suggested going all in on a premier DT prospect on the 2019 draft. 
And this is not a personal slight or anything like that at all -  but you don't know jack squat about Dawuane Smoot yet. None of us do.  He may turn out to be at best a small drop off from Campbell - or at worst a nice rotation piece coupled with a high draft pick. 
Again - let's analyze this after another year of football. These decisions often have a way of becoming easier via player development, regression, or even injury (heaven forbid). Fowler could also make the decision easier by doing something stupid off the field again and incur suspension. 

No one wants to break up the line we have now, but if Fowler continues to improve (as he has done pretty steadily thus far) and Campbell starts to fade or Dareus reverts to his alleged lack of motivation/effort, you keep the ascending player and move on from the one declining. Replacing veterans with draft picks just has to happen fairly regularly to maintain a healthy cap.  Even if the vet has a couple of good years left. 

Another potential way to clear some money for keeping Fowler and the other 2nd contract players is to draft a stud FS this year or next. Gipson has a $9 million cap hit in 2019. Releasing him would clear 7.4 mil.  I thought Gip had an outstanding 2017 season and I don't want to move on from him either, at some point you need some more young players performing on a cheap rookie deal. We can't have 9 of our 11 starting defenders playing on big second (or third) contracts. It's not sustainable.

What if Campbell and Dareus continue to shine? What then? I can see moving on from Gipson. I have acknowledged that, but Nkokoue and Jack will be looking for extensions as well. To me, the easiest fix is finding a way to draft Mason Rudolph, so we can wipe Bortles' salary from the book in 2019 that would save a ton of money.

---

For the third time:  Draft a run-stuffing DT or big end.   Why is this deemed some impossible feat? 

Hell, they could take a big end in Rasheem Greene at #61 this year to groom behind Campbell if they really wanted to jump-start the process. 
There are also a couple of "shade-nose" types in the middle rounds that they could take a flier on to groom behind Dareus.  
Of course - they could just wait until next year and draft one of these types early -  even if it means moving up to get him.

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I ask this all the time...Every guy we draft that turns out good, someone wants to trade him

I know what you mean, but in Fowler’s case we’ve reached decision time.

If we plan to keep him we have to either take up the option or work out a long term deal, because I’m certain he will walk at the end of the season if we don’t - like ARob he will find a bigger offer elsewhere.

If we don’t plan to keep him, then we need to look at trading him now, when he has the most value. If we let him go without trading him or trade him halfway through the season, we won’t get as much for him.

And I’m on the side of trying to work out a way to keep him.

If that’s on the fifth year option initially, then I think you take the risk of an injury.

and if we only get a 4th or 5th for him we are supposed to replace him from that pick? The value wouldn't be there, we would lose more than we gained...I doubt we would win unless we got at least a player with a second round grade from a trade for him...I suspect that Caldwell and Coughlin have already thought about this "problem"  and have a plan or at least have a general idea...If they were wanting to trade him, they would probably have been at least whispering to other teams about a trade...

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What if Campbell and Dareus continue to shine? What then? I can see moving on from Gipson. I have acknowledged that, but Nkokoue and Jack will be looking for extensions as well. To me, the easiest fix is finding a way to draft Mason Rudolph, so we can wipe Bortles' salary from the book in 2019 that would save a ton of money.

---

For the third time:  Draft a run-stuffing DT or big end.   Why is this deemed some impossible feat? 

Hell, they could take a big end in Rasheem Greene at #61 this year to groom behind Campbell if they really wanted to jump-start the process. 
There are also a couple of "shade-nose" types in the middle rounds that they could take a flier on to groom behind Dareus.  
Of course - they could just wait until next year and draft one of these types early -  even if it means moving up to get him.

Foresight doesn't seem to be a quality he possesses....

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Coughlin when asked if winning will be a focus: "What the hell else is there? This is nice and dandy, but winning is what all this is about."

Malik Jackson is one of the best 3 techs in the entire league.

Calais Campbell is one of the best Dline players in the league.

You do everything you can to keep them.

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What if Campbell and Dareus continue to shine? What then? I can see moving on from Gipson. I have acknowledged that, but Nkokoue and Jack will be looking for extensions as well. To me, the easiest fix is finding a way to draft Mason Rudolph, so we can wipe Bortles' salary from the book in 2019 that would save a ton of money.

---

For the third time:  Draft a run-stuffing DT or big end.   Why is this deemed some impossible feat? 

Hell, they could take a big end in Rasheem Greene at #61 this year to groom behind Campbell if they really wanted to jump-start the process. 
There are also a couple of "shade-nose" types in the middle rounds that they could take a flier on to groom behind Dareus.  
Of course - they could just wait until next year and draft one of these types early -  even if it means moving up to get him.

Greene big end?  Hes just your prototypical classic right end imo who has one of the highest ceilings.  PJ Hall is a guy I think we could look at in the mid rounds to replace Dareus. Played in a smaller conference but dominated, can rush the passer and good against the run

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