It's hilarious that people think Hitler was a right winger.

He believed in everything the modern leftist believes in and enforced it all with violence.

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They don't know what they're saying. If you notice, the "fascism is on the right" crowd never actually articulates what fascism is, German state theory, or its economic tenants. They just repeat labels.

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Your German history is lacking. National socialism in Germany stemmed from conservative theorists post world war 1. They wanted a system to oppose Bolshevism. 

It was used by Hitler as a modern(at the time) way to sell nationalism to the middle classes.

It's called revisionist history, and the notion that Hitler was a socialist and not a fascist has been gaining ground since Trump's new tactic has become depicting Democrats as socialists to scare more into his fold.

Nazi is the English word for NSDAP... also known as the National Socialist German Workers Party. The revisionism comes from those that believe more government control is a far-right concept.

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It's called revisionist history, and the notion that Hitler was a socialist and not a fascist has been gaining ground since Trump's new tactic has become depicting Democrats as socialists to scare more into his fold.

Nazi is the English word for NSDAP... also known as the National Socialist German Workers Party. The revisionism comes from those that believe more government control is a far-right concept.

National socialism in Germany literally stemmed from conservative theorists as something to stem the rise of Marxism and Bolshevism. "Socialist" is less important in the name than "National" as the party was largely based on nationalism.  

There was a small more radical element to the party that was more classically socialist but Hitler was on the opposite side to them.

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The movement was invented as a reaction to the left , not as an ally in kind.

They introduced some socialist measures in the mandate to try pry away disillusioned workers in 1920 from other parties and beef up their standing before going full tilt into nationalism once. It wasn't really effective and most of the measures were scrapped as the party developed.

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They don't know what they're saying.  If you notice, the "fascism is on the right" crowd never actually articulates what fascism is, German state theory, or its economic tenants.  They just repeat labels.

Fascism is has a few tenets:

• nations inevitably compete in war, and have to be fully mobilized to the government to win.  They must be ruled by a dictator in order to win, because multiparty states with checks and balances are slow and weak.
  
• nations inevitably compete in war, so the number one priority in economic development is not increasing the standard of living, but reducing dependence on foreign trade.
  

Hitler and Mussolini were both identified with the right wing in their countries before they took over as dictators.  Both of them had said that identity with the nation and race was more important than identifying with your social or economic class.  They both repudiated Marx on this point.

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It's called revisionist history, and the notion that Hitler was a socialist and not a fascist has been gaining ground since Trump's new tactic has become depicting Democrats as socialists to scare more into his fold.

Nazi is the English word for NSDAP... also known as the National Socialist German Workers Party. The revisionism comes from those that believe more government control is a far-right concept.

There were legitimate socialists in the Nazi party when it competed in elections.  The Nazis let them be included as part of a big-tent strategy in the elections.
Then they killed them all off.  Summary executions, no trial.  It was called the Night of the Long Knives.
They never bothered to change the name of the party, but it wasn't pretending to be socialist anymore.

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Important to remember: The Nazis was anything but a party for the working class. They were largely based on the middle class and never got the proles with them. They tried in elections with some socialist measures but they largely failed and scrapped them.

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The idea that "right wing" simply means "less government and more freedom" is unique to this country in this time and place.
In France, those same ideas were often associated with what they called the left wing, trying to fight the Bourbons and the Napoleons.
The big question in Europe after the US interfered in WW1 was if they were going to agree with Woodrow Wilson's 14 points and go for international cooperation with give and take, or if they were each going to emphasize their specific national interest above all else and allow the possibility of another war.
At that specific time and place, the people who went for a pro-peace, international cooperation approach were called left wingers, and those who were willing to start wars and think only about their own country were right wingers. Neither the left wing nor the right wing at that time were speaking much about the debate of "big government vs. personal freedom"

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

They don't know what they're saying.  If you notice, the "fascism is on the right" crowd never actually articulates what fascism is, German state theory, or its economic tenants.  They just repeat labels.

Fascism is has a few tenets:

• nations inevitably compete in war, and have to be fully mobilized to the government to win.  They must be ruled by a dictator in order to win, because multiparty states with checks and balances are slow and weak.
  
• nations inevitably compete in war, so the number one priority in economic development is not increasing the standard of living, but reducing dependence on foreign trade.
  

Hitler and Mussolini were both identified with the right wing in their countries before they took over as dictators.  Both of them had said that identity with the nation and race was more important than identifying with your social or economic class.  They both repudiated Marx on this point.

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Nazi is the English word for NSDAP... also known as the National Socialist German Workers Party. The revisionism comes from those that believe more government control is a far-right concept.

There were legitimate socialists in the Nazi party when it competed in elections.  The Nazis let them be included as part of a big-tent strategy in the elections.
Then they killed them all off.  Summary executions, no trial.  It was called the Night of the Long Knives.
They never bothered to change the name of the party, but it wasn't pretending to be socialist anymore.

Yep and the same is true in numerous other European countries with copy cat parties. Such as the national socialist party in Czechoslovakia

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You keep beating the same drum.

1.) Its somewhat inefficient to represent the political spectrum as purely linear. There are multiple dimendions and axis that lend to a more 3d structure.

2.) I already pointed out that national socialism is not the same as international communism. Mussolini made that distinction as he realized the mobilizing force of a nation was stronger than that of disembodied class identification.

3.) The fundamental organizing tenant of fascism is "everything inside the state, and nothing outside of it." This gave the state universal power, as a representative of the COLLECTIVE WILL, to control every aspect of human life. Also it followed that the individual didn't matter in the context of the public interest and thus there was no commitment to individual rights. This has nothing to do with classical liberalism (what conservatives would be termed on the continent) or constitutional republicanism.

So again, we are not asserting that national socialism is the same destination as international communism. We are pointing out, quite clearly, that fascist state theory is, plainly, an irritation of statism.

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Wow - a whole lot of posts aimed at determining how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

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The sun's not yellow, it's chicken.

Wow, this topic went waaaaaaaaaay off the rails. I'm gonna try to stay on the original subject. The idea that ALL people who are pro-choice are Liberal and ALL people who are anti-abortion are Conservative is totally ridiculous. Life is not black and white. You can have wildly varying opinions on a variety of subjects, by taking each one at face value. In fact, I believe most people do this, but for some reason the "powers that be" want to force people into labeling their political affiliations. I refuse to do that, because my beliefs vary depending on the subject. I refuse to call myself a Conservative or a Liberal. I have some very Liberal beliefs on some subjects and some extremely Conservative beliefs on others. Why do people have to label their political affiliations if their opinions vary by subject?

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You keep beating the same drum.  

1.) Its somewhat inefficient to represent the political spectrum as purely linear.  There are multiple dimendions and axis that lend to a more 3d structure.

2.) I already pointed out that national socialism is not the same as international communism.  Mussolini made that distinction as he realized the mobilizing force of a nation was stronger than that of disembodied class identification.  

3.) The fundamental organizing tenant of fascism is "everything inside the state, and nothing outside of it."  This gave the state universal power, as a representative of the COLLECTIVE WILL, to control every aspect of human life.  Also it followed that the individual didn't matter in the context of the public interest and thus there was no commitment to individual rights.  This has nothing to do with classical liberalism (what conservatives would be termed on the continent) or constitutional republicanism.  

So again, we are not asserting that national socialism is the same destination as international communism.  We are pointing out, quite clearly, that fascist state theory is, plainly, an irritation of statism.

Statism, sure, but not leftism.

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Wow - a whole lot of posts aimed at determining how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Yeah, you're all Commufasleftinazis.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Nazi is the English word for NSDAP... also known as the National Socialist German Workers Party. The revisionism comes from those that believe more government control is a far-right concept.

National socialism in Germany literally stemmed from conservative theorists as something to stem the rise of Marxism and Bolshevism. "Socialist" is less important in the name than "National" as the party was largely based on nationalism.  

There was a small more radical element to the party that was more classically socialist but Hitler was on the opposite side to them.

National socialism is not right-wing because they share a sense of nationalism. 

They called it national socialism because they wanted another word for socialism. Much like today with re-branding it into democratic socialism, it's the same stuff with a new name. They specifically named it national socialism (formerly Germans Worker Party) to attract more members from socialist and communist groups. Gregor Strasser, an official in the Nazi party, once said, "We are Socialists, enemies, mortal enemies of the present capitalist economic system...".

Admittedly, like most economies in history, they exihibited elements of crony capitalism. This, however, doesn't change how the government still maintained the power of production. They told the "privately held" companies what to produce, how much to produce, and when to produce it.

This idea that nationalism is racist because Nazis were racists and, as a result, right-wing (because they're racist) is purposely ignoring everything the Nazi party did. They explicitly said they were socialist.

They don't know what they're saying.  If you notice, the "fascism is on the right" crowd never actually articulates what fascism is, German state theory, or its economic tenants.  They just repeat labels.

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Nazi is the English word for NSDAP... also known as the National Socialist German Workers Party. The revisionism comes from those that believe more government control is a far-right concept.

There were legitimate socialists in the Nazi party when it competed in elections.  The Nazis let them be included as part of a big-tent strategy in the elections.
Then they killed them all off.  Summary executions, no trial.  It was called the Night of the Long Knives.
They never bothered to change the name of the party, but it wasn't pretending to be socialist anymore.

Nazis were socialists. 

Hitler was the Fuhrer of the Nazi Party beginning in 1921... the National Socialist German Workers Party. The Knight of the Long Knives didn't happen until 1934. Hitler didn't kill off the socialists; he killed off members of the storm detachment (SA). People he thought posed a risk to his power. The SA was the Nazis first paramilitary group and rapidly increasing in numbers and influence. Frankly, I'm not even sure how you thought that was a killing-off of socialists. That was entirely about Hitler's (and Hindenburg's) fear of the rising power of the SA.

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National socialism in Germany literally stemmed from conservative theorists as something to stem the rise of Marxism and Bolshevism. "Socialist" is less important in the name than "National" as the party was largely based on nationalism.  

There was a small more radical element to the party that was more classically socialist but Hitler was on the opposite side to them.

National socialism is not right-wing because they share a sense of nationalism. 

They called it national socialism because they wanted another word for socialism. Much like today with re-branding it into democratic socialism, it's the same stuff with a new name. They specifically named it national socialism (formerly Germans Worker Party) to attract more members from socialist and communist groups. Gregor Strasser, an official in the Nazi party, once said, "We are Socialists, enemies, mortal enemies of the present capitalist economic system...".

Admittedly, like most economies in history, they exihibited elements of crony capitalism. This, however, doesn't change how the government still maintained the power of production. They told the "privately held" companies what to produce, how much to produce, and when to produce it.

This idea that nationalism is racist because Nazis were racists and, as a result, right-wing (because they're racist) is purposely ignoring everything the Nazi party did. They explicitly said they were socialist.

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There were legitimate socialists in the Nazi party when it competed in elections.  The Nazis let them be included as part of a big-tent strategy in the elections.
Then they killed them all off.  Summary executions, no trial.  It was called the Night of the Long Knives.
They never bothered to change the name of the party, but it wasn't pretending to be socialist anymore.

Nazis were socialists. 

Hitler was the Fuhrer of the Nazi Party beginning in 1921... the National Socialist German Workers Party. The Knight of the Long Knives didn't happen until 1934. Hitler didn't kill off the socialists; he killed off members of the storm detachment (SA). People he thought posed a risk to his power. The SA was the Nazis first paramilitary group and rapidly increasing in numbers and influence. Frankly, I'm not even sure how you thought that was a killing-off of socialists. That was entirely about Hitler's (and Hindenburg's) fear of the rising power of the SA.

Your quote from Gregor Strasser looks authentic.
Look up how and when the man died...

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

National socialism in Germany literally stemmed from conservative theorists as something to stem the rise of Marxism and Bolshevism. "Socialist" is less important in the name than "National" as the party was largely based on nationalism.  

There was a small more radical element to the party that was more classically socialist but Hitler was on the opposite side to them.

National socialism is not right-wing because they share a sense of nationalism. 

They called it national socialism because they wanted another word for socialism. Much like today with re-branding it into democratic socialism, it's the same stuff with a new name. They specifically named it national socialism (formerly Germans Worker Party) to attract more members from socialist and communist groups. Gregor Strasser, an official in the Nazi party, once said, "We are Socialists, enemies, mortal enemies of the present capitalist economic system...".

Admittedly, like most economies in history, they exihibited elements of crony capitalism. This, however, doesn't change how the government still maintained the power of production. They told the "privately held" companies what to produce, how much to produce, and when to produce it.

This idea that nationalism is racist because Nazis were racists and, as a result, right-wing (because they're racist) is purposely ignoring everything the Nazi party did. They explicitly said they were socialist.

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There were legitimate socialists in the Nazi party when it competed in elections.  The Nazis let them be included as part of a big-tent strategy in the elections.
Then they killed them all off.  Summary executions, no trial.  It was called the Night of the Long Knives.
They never bothered to change the name of the party, but it wasn't pretending to be socialist anymore.

Nazis were socialists. 

Hitler was the Fuhrer of the Nazi Party beginning in 1921... the National Socialist German Workers Party. The Knight of the Long Knives didn't happen until 1934. Hitler didn't kill off the socialists; he killed off members of the storm detachment (SA). People he thought posed a risk to his power. The SA was the Nazis first paramilitary group and rapidly increasing in numbers and influence. Frankly, I'm not even sure how you thought that was a killing-off of socialists. That was entirely about Hitler's (and Hindenburg's) fear of the rising power of the SA.

You might want to look up where the national socialist movement stemmed from and what its beliefs were Vs what an actual socialists believed at the time. It stemmed from conservative theorists post world war 1 who wanted to oppose communism and Bolshevism i.e actual socialism at the time.  They wanted removal of classes, world socialism, rise of the proles , and distribution of capital. The "National Socialist" movement was not based on any of those themes.    

Early on they were a purely populist party with some socialist policies to try entire workers to join, but it wasn't very effective and were eventually scrapped.  

Lol I take it you have no idea who Gregor Strasser was do you?  

You should also probably Google what happened on the night of the long knives too before spouting off about it (hint : it's related to Gregor Strasser)

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National socialism is not right-wing because they share a sense of nationalism. 

They called it national socialism because they wanted another word for socialism. Much like today with re-branding it into democratic socialism, it's the same stuff with a new name. They specifically named it national socialism (formerly Germans Worker Party) to attract more members from socialist and communist groups. Gregor Strasser, an official in the Nazi party, once said, "We are Socialists, enemies, mortal enemies of the present capitalist economic system...".

Admittedly, like most economies in history, they exihibited elements of crony capitalism. This, however, doesn't change how the government still maintained the power of production. They told the "privately held" companies what to produce, how much to produce, and when to produce it.

This idea that nationalism is racist because Nazis were racists and, as a result, right-wing (because they're racist) is purposely ignoring everything the Nazi party did. They explicitly said they were socialist.



Nazis were socialists. 

Hitler was the Fuhrer of the Nazi Party beginning in 1921... the National Socialist German Workers Party. The Knight of the Long Knives didn't happen until 1934. Hitler didn't kill off the socialists; he killed off members of the storm detachment (SA). People he thought posed a risk to his power. The SA was the Nazis first paramilitary group and rapidly increasing in numbers and influence. Frankly, I'm not even sure how you thought that was a killing-off of socialists. That was entirely about Hitler's (and Hindenburg's) fear of the rising power of the SA.

Your quote from Gregor Strasser looks authentic.
Look up how and when the man died...

Oh this is brilliant, he doesn't know who he is

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Drifter, you might as well change the name of this thread to "Was Hitler a Leftist or a Right Winger?" The original discussion seems to be lost, forever.

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It's called revisionist history, and the notion that Hitler was a socialist and not a fascist has been gaining ground since Trump's new tactic has become depicting Democrats as socialists to scare more into his fold.

And at the same time it's used to keep comparisons between Hitler's brand of nationalism away from the conservatives (even though that's where it came from).  

The whole point of the movement was to stop the rise of actual communism and prevent a proletariat uprising in Germany

Poppycock!  Anyone trying to tie Hitlers brand of nationalism to anything going on today is ignoring history to make a point.  Hitler never comes to power had the German people been treated even modestly decent post WWI.  

And RJ come on, even the democrats are embracing the "socialist" moniker.

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Original Season Ticket Holder - Retired  1995 - 2020


At some point you just have to let go of what you thought should happen and live in what is happening.
 

Drifter, you might as well change the name of this thread to "Was Hitler a Leftist or a Right Winger?" The original discussion seems to be lost, forever.

You settle down.  Sometimes you have to go with where the conversation takes you.  

And to answer your question, "Yes".  It all depends on :when" the questions is being asked.

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Original Season Ticket Holder - Retired  1995 - 2020


At some point you just have to let go of what you thought should happen and live in what is happening.