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Student Loan Forgiveness

#41

(02-06-2021, 03:04 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: I love it that you even pretend to assume there isn't a study out there that supports that idea, when that is exactly what that article was referencing. What a clown.

Same thing taken from a different article, referencing the same study:

The finding is unexpected, as Gen Xers — now ranging in age from their late thirties to early fifties — should currently be in the peak stage of their careers, and advancing rapidly. However, many Baby Boomers are deciding to stay in the workforce much longer than previous generations, which may be affecting Gen X’s advancement. More than half of Baby Boomers are reportedly delaying retirement, many until 70 or later, because of financial insecurity and rising health care costs. As a result, older workers are not only holding onto their jobs longer but also are still trying to advance into higher-paying roles.

As a result of the attention paid to Baby Boomers and Millennials, Gen X often gets short shrift, a trend that has continued over time. Looking back at our past global leadership surveys, we found that Gen X’s promotion rate has consistently been 20%–30% slower than Millennials’. However, we also discovered that Gen X is playing a critical but often underappreciated role in the workforce.

So despite playing a critical role in the work place, Gen X is getting outpaced by millennials AND boomers in promotion. Why don't you do some research and tell me if Boomers were this far behind at the same point in their careers (newsflash: you can't).

So we've established that Gen X holds a greater percentage of leadership roles than Millennials  -  but millennials are being promoted at a better rate. (there being more of them in the workforce increases their probability, but we'll just ignore that) 

The real question is:
Why does it matter if Millennials gain more leadership sooner than the generational norm for that shift to occur?
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#42

Gen X is the Jan Brady of the generations.
What in the Wide Wide World of Sports is agoin' on here???
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#43

I wonder how many Biden voters are all for taking on debt incurred by others.  After all, that's exactly what it is.  Student loan "forgiveness" pretty much means that the people that signed those contracts don't have to fulfill them and the people that actually pay taxes do.


There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.
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#44

(02-06-2021, 05:17 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: I wonder how many Biden voters are all for taking on debt incurred by others.  After all, that's exactly what it is.  Student loan "forgiveness" pretty much means that the people that signed those contracts don't have to fulfill them and the people that actually pay taxes do.

Well I’m certainly not a Biden supporter and on the surface I’m with you 100% student debt needs to be paid by those that took out the debt.

That said I’m just reading the tea leaves and see it almost inevitable they’re going to “write off” a portion if not all student debt for a large portion of the population holding that debt. 

I guess I’m just throwing out there the idea of give and take, IF we’re going to go down that road let’s tie it to something else reduce their social security payouts and we can make some of that money back over a long period of time. 

For example sally has 90k in student loans and is going to be receiving a 50k forgiveness from the current administration. Why not make the automatic social security withdrawals continue but then when salt retires she either gets a 50k deduction in benefits or doesn’t collect until the 50k is paid back from her social security allotments. 

This way we continue to some what fun social security for current generations and ease the payments for future generations as the system is becoming more and more insolvent. 

To me the alternative is we let nature takes its course the bubble pops and everyone is hurt by the stock market drop and or recession similar to the housing bubble, it would wreck the returns on older generations trying to retire now as well. Or we write it off and the rest of us take it on the chin and pay it off in taxes no one wins here. Or hope a generation that is way over spent and under employed is going to some how payback this money not very likely. 

It’s a bad situation with no perfect solution. 

Long term there has to be something done to control cost, if education is going to be publicly funded (which it is indirectly now) the free market supply and demand doesn’t work there has to be price controls. 

Like insurance and any other sector once you eliminate the two party supply and demand and introduce third party subsidies the rules of free market go out the window.
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#45

(02-06-2021, 03:55 PM)NYC4jags Wrote:
(02-06-2021, 03:04 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: I love it that you even pretend to assume there isn't a study out there that supports that idea, when that is exactly what that article was referencing. What a clown.

Same thing taken from a different article, referencing the same study:

The finding is unexpected, as Gen Xers — now ranging in age from their late thirties to early fifties — should currently be in the peak stage of their careers, and advancing rapidly. However, many Baby Boomers are deciding to stay in the workforce much longer than previous generations, which may be affecting Gen X’s advancement. More than half of Baby Boomers are reportedly delaying retirement, many until 70 or later, because of financial insecurity and rising health care costs. As a result, older workers are not only holding onto their jobs longer but also are still trying to advance into higher-paying roles.

As a result of the attention paid to Baby Boomers and Millennials, Gen X often gets short shrift, a trend that has continued over time. Looking back at our past global leadership surveys, we found that Gen X’s promotion rate has consistently been 20%–30% slower than Millennials’. However, we also discovered that Gen X is playing a critical but often underappreciated role in the workforce.

So despite playing a critical role in the work place, Gen X is getting outpaced by millennials AND boomers in promotion. Why don't you do some research and tell me if Boomers were this far behind at the same point in their careers (newsflash: you can't).

So we've established that Gen X holds a greater percentage of leadership roles than Millennials  -  but millennials are being promoted at a better rate. (there being more of them in the workforce increases their probability, but we'll just ignore that) 

The real question is:
Why does it matter if Millennials gain more leadership sooner than the generational norm for that shift to occur?

I answered that question. It was also stated in the article.
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#46

(02-06-2021, 07:13 PM)EricC85 Wrote:
(02-06-2021, 05:17 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: I wonder how many Biden voters are all for taking on debt incurred by others.  After all, that's exactly what it is.  Student loan "forgiveness" pretty much means that the people that signed those contracts don't have to fulfill them and the people that actually pay taxes do.

Well I’m certainly not a Biden supporter and on the surface I’m with you 100% student debt needs to be paid by those that took out the debt.

That said I’m just reading the tea leaves and see it almost inevitable they’re going to “write off” a portion if not all student debt for a large portion of the population holding that debt. 

I guess I’m just throwing out there the idea of give and take, IF we’re going to go down that road let’s tie it to something else reduce their social security payouts and we can make some of that money back over a long period of time. 

For example sally has 90k in student loans and is going to be receiving a 50k forgiveness from the current administration. Why not make the automatic social security withdrawals continue but then when salt retires she either gets a 50k deduction in benefits or doesn’t collect until the 50k is paid back from her social security allotments. 

This way we continue to some what fun social security for current generations and ease the payments for future generations as the system is becoming more and more insolvent. 

To me the alternative is we let nature takes its course the bubble pops and everyone is hurt by the stock market drop and or recession similar to the housing bubble, it would wreck the returns on older generations trying to retire now as well. Or we write it off and the rest of us take it on the chin and pay it off in taxes no one wins here. Or hope a generation that is way over spent and under employed is going to some how payback this money not very likely. 

It’s a bad situation with no perfect solution. 

Long term there has to be something done to control cost, if education is going to be publicly funded (which it is indirectly now) the free market supply and demand doesn’t work there has to be price controls. 

Like insurance and any other sector once you eliminate the two party supply and demand and introduce third party subsidies the rules of free market go out the window.

So can we "write off" $50k of debt on my property and let me "pay it back" by reducing my SS payments?

What exactly is the difference between a student loan, mortgage, car loan, etc.?


There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.
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#47

(02-06-2021, 07:30 PM)jagibelieve Wrote:
(02-06-2021, 07:13 PM)EricC85 Wrote: Well I’m certainly not a Biden supporter and on the surface I’m with you 100% student debt needs to be paid by those that took out the debt.

That said I’m just reading the tea leaves and see it almost inevitable they’re going to “write off” a portion if not all student debt for a large portion of the population holding that debt. 

I guess I’m just throwing out there the idea of give and take, IF we’re going to go down that road let’s tie it to something else reduce their social security payouts and we can make some of that money back over a long period of time. 

For example sally has 90k in student loans and is going to be receiving a 50k forgiveness from the current administration. Why not make the automatic social security withdrawals continue but then when salt retires she either gets a 50k deduction in benefits or doesn’t collect until the 50k is paid back from her social security allotments. 

This way we continue to some what fun social security for current generations and ease the payments for future generations as the system is becoming more and more insolvent. 

To me the alternative is we let nature takes its course the bubble pops and everyone is hurt by the stock market drop and or recession similar to the housing bubble, it would wreck the returns on older generations trying to retire now as well. Or we write it off and the rest of us take it on the chin and pay it off in taxes no one wins here. Or hope a generation that is way over spent and under employed is going to some how payback this money not very likely. 

It’s a bad situation with no perfect solution. 

Long term there has to be something done to control cost, if education is going to be publicly funded (which it is indirectly now) the free market supply and demand doesn’t work there has to be price controls. 

Like insurance and any other sector once you eliminate the two party supply and demand and introduce third party subsidies the rules of free market go out the window.

So can we "write off" $50k of debt on my property and let me "pay it back" by reducing my SS payments?

What exactly is the difference between a student loan, mortgage, car loan, etc.?

Collateral.
Something to repossess in case of failure to pay.
Also, some student loans are guaranteed by the government.
My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.
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#48

(02-06-2021, 08:48 PM)mikesez Wrote:
(02-06-2021, 07:30 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: So can we "write off" $50k of debt on my property and let me "pay it back" by reducing my SS payments?

What exactly is the difference between a student loan, mortgage, car loan, etc.?

Collateral.
Something to repossess in case of failure to pay.
Also, some student loans are guaranteed by the government.

What about private student loans? Will those be "forgiven" too?
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#49

(02-06-2021, 08:48 PM)mikesez Wrote:
(02-06-2021, 07:30 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: So can we "write off" $50k of debt on my property and let me "pay it back" by reducing my SS payments?

What exactly is the difference between a student loan, mortgage, car loan, etc.?

Collateral.
Something to repossess in case of failure to pay.
Also, some student loans are guaranteed by the government.

I’d argue some people’s education have been repo’ed. they do it to themselves.  Just because they have the degree, doesn’t mean they’re smart or even qualified to do anything of any significance.
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#50

(02-06-2021, 08:50 PM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote:
(02-06-2021, 08:48 PM)mikesez Wrote: Collateral.
Something to repossess in case of failure to pay.
Also, some student loans are guaranteed by the government.

What about private student loans? Will those be "forgiven" too?

I don't think any of them should be forgiven, not completely.  Everyone should pay what they can for at least 7 and preferably 10 years.  Maybe forgive after that.

The other problem is no one is talking about what this might do to tuition prices going forward.
My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.
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#51

(02-06-2021, 09:00 PM)mikesez Wrote:
(02-06-2021, 08:50 PM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: What about private student loans? Will those be "forgiven" too?

I don't think any of them should be forgiven, not completely.  Everyone should pay what they can for at least 7 and preferably 10 years.  Maybe forgive after that.

The other problem is no one is talking about what this might do to tuition prices going forward.

So what is the biggest problem? Is it the loan itself or the payment amount? Why not discuss refinancing at a longer term with VERY low interest rates? Anyone can afford a couple hundred dollars a month.
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#52
(This post was last modified: 02-06-2021, 09:45 PM by EricC85.)

(02-06-2021, 07:30 PM)jagibelieve Wrote:
(02-06-2021, 07:13 PM)EricC85 Wrote: Well I’m certainly not a Biden supporter and on the surface I’m with you 100% student debt needs to be paid by those that took out the debt.

That said I’m just reading the tea leaves and see it almost inevitable they’re going to “write off” a portion if not all student debt for a large portion of the population holding that debt. 

I guess I’m just throwing out there the idea of give and take, IF we’re going to go down that road let’s tie it to something else reduce their social security payouts and we can make some of that money back over a long period of time. 

For example sally has 90k in student loans and is going to be receiving a 50k forgiveness from the current administration. Why not make the automatic social security withdrawals continue but then when salt retires she either gets a 50k deduction in benefits or doesn’t collect until the 50k is paid back from her social security allotments. 

This way we continue to some what fun social security for current generations and ease the payments for future generations as the system is becoming more and more insolvent. 

To me the alternative is we let nature takes its course the bubble pops and everyone is hurt by the stock market drop and or recession similar to the housing bubble, it would wreck the returns on older generations trying to retire now as well. Or we write it off and the rest of us take it on the chin and pay it off in taxes no one wins here. Or hope a generation that is way over spent and under employed is going to some how payback this money not very likely. 

It’s a bad situation with no perfect solution. 

Long term there has to be something done to control cost, if education is going to be publicly funded (which it is indirectly now) the free market supply and demand doesn’t work there has to be price controls. 

Like insurance and any other sector once you eliminate the two party supply and demand and introduce third party subsidies the rules of free market go out the window.

So can we "write off" $50k of debt on my property and let me "pay it back" by reducing my SS payments?

What exactly is the difference between a student loan, mortgage, car loan, etc.?

Well the reality is there is no difference in the loan only the circumstances. These student loans are federally guaranteed (something we need to reevaluate but that’s another topic) which means if the loans are defaulted the tax payer is still paying the Bill. Sure refunds and wage garnishment might recoup some of that money but probably not nearly enough to offset a massive default bubble. 

My point is trying to avoid another bubble bursting and wrecking havoc on the economy as a whole. At the same time addressing another reality that social security even under the best circumstances will be insolvent in 40 years if not sooner. Doesn’t change the reality these workers are still going to have to fund it but they likely won’t see much of a return so let’s trade. One generation funds retirement the other funds college. It’s just an idea

(02-06-2021, 09:12 PM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote:
(02-06-2021, 09:00 PM)mikesez Wrote: I don't think any of them should be forgiven, not completely.  Everyone should pay what they can for at least 7 and preferably 10 years.  Maybe forgive after that.

The other problem is no one is talking about what this might do to tuition prices going forward.


So what is the biggest problem? Is it the loan itself or the payment amount? Why not discuss refinancing at a longer term with VERY low interest rates? Anyone can afford a couple hundred dollars a month.

They already have income driven repayment plans it’s not the payments it’s the amount of these loans. It’s not uncommon for them to be near six figures so now you have a generation with a mortgage payment but no house that’s bad economically speaking. We either have to stop federally funding these loans (my preference) or Establish strict price controls (more likely option given society’s preference to centralize everything). 

Doesn’t change the default bubble coming either way but let’s at least stop the bleeding at some point right?
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#53

(02-06-2021, 09:41 PM)EricC85 Wrote:
(02-06-2021, 09:12 PM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: So what is the biggest problem? Is it the loan itself or the payment amount? Why not discuss refinancing at a longer term with VERY low interest rates? Anyone can afford a couple hundred dollars a month.

They already have income driven repayment plans it’s not the payments it’s the amount of these loans. It’s not uncommon for them to be near six figures so now you have a generation with a mortgage payment but no house that’s bad economically speaking. We either have to stop federally funding these loans (my preference) or Establish strict price controls (more likely option given society’s preference to centralize everything). 

Doesn’t change the default bubble coming either way but let’s at least stop the bleeding at some point right?

I mostly agree.
Income based repayment plans are hard to get.  They should be the default for the federally backed loans.
And on the other side, we need to do more to punish the schools whose combination of high cost and low quality causes too many students to be unable to repay.  Schools will be stricter about which students they let in and pay more attention to the quality of their programs that way.
But "reading the tea leaves" as one of you said, I think the elites really do want nearly everyone to go to college, so that you're really not a full member of the economy until age 22 or 26 instead of 18.  They won't do much to make the expensive private colleges more careful.
My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.
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#54
(This post was last modified: 02-07-2021, 07:20 AM by The Real Marty.)

(02-06-2021, 05:17 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: I wonder how many Biden voters are all for taking on debt incurred by others.  After all, that's exactly what it is.  Student loan "forgiveness" pretty much means that the people that signed those contracts don't have to fulfill them and the people that actually pay taxes do.

I am a Biden voter and I am not in favor of it.  It's not fair to the people who either did not incur debts, or paid them off.

We have to get the government out of the student loan business.  The free market has to decide whether a person is credit worthy or not, and whether the degree they are investing in is going to return enough money to pay off the loan they took out to get that degree.
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#55

(02-06-2021, 09:12 PM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote:
(02-06-2021, 09:00 PM)mikesez Wrote: I don't think any of them should be forgiven, not completely.  Everyone should pay what they can for at least 7 and preferably 10 years.  Maybe forgive after that.

The other problem is no one is talking about what this might do to tuition prices going forward.

So what is the biggest problem? Is it the loan itself or the payment amount? Why not discuss refinancing at a longer term with VERY low interest rates? Anyone can afford a couple hundred dollars a month.

Because the lowest rate you can get on a 30 year consolidation is almost 7%. People are using the income based payment plans and after decades of paying they owe more than they started out with. I could get behind a zero percent interest loan faster than I could a complete forgiveness, but something has to change. The government should not be making money off of kids trying to get an education. The life these kids were promised going in to college is not the life they get coming out, and now we're dealing with credential inflation that makes even entry level jobs in some fields require a 4 year degree. My own story is like that, I hit the ceiling in my field at 28. In order to move up I had to go to grad school even though the person I was tabbed to replace didn't hold but a Bachelor's. So $35k and 3 years later I had an MBA to get a promotion that earned me all of $4k more per year. We've allowed these kids to be snookered into decades of debt slavery by the institutions and the guidance counselors and that has to stop. Especially when that "couple hundred dollars a month" is preventing home ownership and the creation of stable families.
“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

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#56

(02-07-2021, 07:13 AM)The Real Marty Wrote:
(02-06-2021, 05:17 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: I wonder how many Biden voters are all for taking on debt incurred by others.  After all, that's exactly what it is.  Student loan "forgiveness" pretty much means that the people that signed those contracts don't have to fulfill them and the people that actually pay taxes do.

I am a Biden voter 

Really? We had NO idea!

College is not a job training program and not every well educated person who contributes greatly to society will be a "return on investment" in the monetary sense. Society needs academics and the humanities and fine arts too, it's what separates us from the animals.
“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

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#57

Were subsidizing the inflation that makes it impossible to afford college in the first place.
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#58

(02-07-2021, 09:25 AM)jj82284 Wrote: Were subsidizing the inflation that makes it impossible to afford college in the first place.

Very true. Now some schools are addressing that concern with tuition freezes, but that's only after tuition more than doubled over the last 10 years with it's 8% annual increases.
“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

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#59

(02-07-2021, 09:23 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote:
(02-07-2021, 07:13 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: I am a Biden voter 

Really? We had NO idea!

College is not a job training program and not every well educated person who contributes greatly to society will be a "return on investment" in the monetary sense. Society needs academics and the humanities and fine arts too, it's what separates us from the animals.

I have a liberal arts degree and a business degree.  And I agree with you.  I'm glad I have a liberal arts degree.  

But I do not think we should loan people money who cannot or will not pay it back.  And certainly the taxpayers should not voluntarily foot the bill for people's unpaid debts.  It's unfair to the people who have paid off their debts or people who never incurred the debt in the first place.  I don't want the government to bail people out for their bad judgment.  If we get the government out of the college loan business, and leave it to the free market, then more intelligent decisions will be made about whom to loan the money to.  

So I am completely against forgiving student loans.
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#60

(02-07-2021, 10:01 AM)The Real Marty Wrote:
(02-07-2021, 09:23 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: Really? We had NO idea!

College is not a job training program and not every well educated person who contributes greatly to society will be a "return on investment" in the monetary sense. Society needs academics and the humanities and fine arts too, it's what separates us from the animals.

I have a liberal arts degree and a business degree.  And I agree with you.  I'm glad I have a liberal arts degree.  

But I do not think we should loan people money who cannot or will not pay it back.  And certainly the taxpayers should not voluntarily foot the bill for people's unpaid debts.  It's unfair to the people who have paid off their debts or people who never incurred the debt in the first place.  I don't want the government to bail people out for their bad judgment.  If we get the government out of the college loan business, and leave it to the free market, then more intelligent decisions will be made about whom to loan the money to.  

So I am completely against forgiving student loans.

Yet you voted for the candidate who openly campaigned on forgiving them.
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