Dialog we've all heard 1,000 times

1.  Tebow is not even a competent NFL quarterback
2.  Yes he is. He has a career winning record and led the Broncos to an exciting 7-1 run and a playoff won.
3.  That was not because to him. The defense got suddenly better and the run game (but not Tebiw runs) got suddenly better.
4.  If a streak like that was actually due mostly to him, he wouldn't just be minimally competent,  he would be all pro level, elite.  You just said he was terrible.  You can't win like that with a terrible quarterback. He has to be at NFL competence level.
5.  He is terrible, I hereby double down.
6.  He was very good at some things,  but couldn't ultimately pass well enough to hold down the position.
7.  No he was not very good at anything.

So you're saying... I'm totally dug into my position, Tebow can literally do anything and everything..... regardless that he COULDN'T in his prime in REAL LIFE (we have video evidence of him trying, and more than that in training where he sucked and many players can verify that).

It's pathetic. You're all just pathetic. Yes, ANY 20-25 year old College BASKETBALL player would be better because they would have the BODY and the FRAME and the ATHLETIC ability to actually be a viable NFL Tight End.


Your inability to grasp the simple concept that this old washed up man can't hang with the young bucks is sad... as are the people saying I couldn't do an Oklahoma drill versus Tebow... no [BLEEP] [BLEEP]... but he can't either against NFL players.

---

Dialog we've all heard 1,000 times

1.  Tebow is not even a competent NFL quarterback
2.  Yes he is. He has a career winning record and led the Broncos to an exciting 7-1 run and a playoff won.
3.  That was not because to him. The defense got suddenly better and the run game (but not Tebiw runs) got suddenly better.
4.  If a streak like that was actually due mostly to him, he wouldn't just be minimally competent,  he would be all pro level, elite.  You just said he was terrible.  You can't win like that with a terrible quarterback. He has to be at NFL competence level.
5.  He is terrible, I hereby double down.
6.  He was very good at some things,  but couldn't ultimately pass well enough to hold down the position.
7.  No he was not very good at anything.

Okay...let's add a few twists to the dialogue.

Tebow was good at running with the football not so good at passing the ball.  The statistics prove both.  But the overall consensus is that mobile QBs who can not function consistently or proficiently from the pocket are not good QBs (Akili Smith, Christian Ponder, Cade McNown among others).

Given this, why doesn't that conclusion apply to Tebow?  Why should a guy who can't complete 50% of his passes over the course of his career be given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to being a good QB?

At what point do his numbers and the opinions of countless GMs and head coaches over ten years (and counting considering his current tryout at TE, not QB) start to shape your opinion on Tebow's QB performance/potential?

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

I certainly haven't read every post in this thread, but one thing I haven't noticed anyone mention is just how tiny Tebow is for the position. I did see some tweets from the beat writers talking about how shockingly short he looked compared to the rest of the position group, so I apologize if it's been brought up here and I missed it.

It's going to be extremely hard for him to be a competent blocker (which is probably what most would expect he would be better at right out of the gate, as opposed to both learning how to run routes and catch at an NFL level). Everyone he faces is going to have many inches of height and length on him.

---

Dialog we've all heard 1,000 times

1.  Tebow is not even a competent NFL quarterback
2.  Yes he is. He has a career winning record and led the Broncos to an exciting 7-1 run and a playoff won.
3.  That was not because to him. The defense got suddenly better and the run game (but not Tebiw runs) got suddenly better.
4.  If a streak like that was actually due mostly to him, he wouldn't just be minimally competent,  he would be all pro level, elite.  You just said he was terrible.  You can't win like that with a terrible quarterback. He has to be at NFL competence level.
5.  He is terrible, I hereby double down.
6.  He was very good at some things,  but couldn't ultimately pass well enough to hold down the position.
7.  No he was not very good at anything.

Okay...let's add a few twists to the dialogue.

Tebow was good at running with the football not so good at passing the ball.  The statistics prove both.  But the overall consensus is that mobile QBs who can not function consistently or proficiently from the pocket are not good QBs (Akili Smith, Christian Ponder, Cade McNown among others).

Given this, why doesn't that conclusion apply to Tebow?  Why should a guy who can't complete 50% of his passes over the course of his career be given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to being a good QB?

At what point do his numbers and the opinions of countless GMs and head coaches over ten years (and counting considering his current tryout at TE, not QB) start to shape your opinion on Tebow's QB performance/potential?

I don't understand your point. Tebow washed out years ago. He couldn't make a roster. "Competent NFL quarterback" doesn't entitle you to a job. It makes you one af about 300 people applying for 32 jobs.

He's trying put as a TE. Why can't you just have fun and root for the guy? He's never going to QB.

It seems like people are determined for him to fail in every sense. Just enjoy it. He was and is a great athlete that might be able to help.

---

What was the Broncos record under Kyle Orton in 2010?

They were 4-12 in 2010 (3-10 specifically under Orton)-easily verifiable, as pendragon would say.

That said, it doesn't mean that Tebow was solely or even mostly the cause for the improvement from 2010-2011, nor does it explain the post Tebow improvement on the same team with the same coach between 2012-2015.

Coach John Fox was there from in 2011 as was Von Miller.  Tebow was NOT there in 2012-2015, but Fox and Miller were.

So again, if Tebow were solely or even mostly responsible for the improvement from 2010-2011, why would Denver be so quick to get rid of him?  Why couldn't he replicate that success elsewhere if Denver's trade of Tebow was a mistake?  Why could he only command a 4th round draft pick in trade compensation if it were incontrovertible fact that Tebow was solely responsible for Denver's run and he were this undeniable talent?  Several QBs were rumored to be on the trade market this offseason:  Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson and DeShaun Watson, minimally, all had  at least one first round pick speculated as a baseline to acquire their services, with most supposedly commanding far more for their services.  But Tebow the living legend could only muster a 4th.  This was true even though there was a relative dearth of QBs carrying first round grades between 2012-2014.  Even if Denver were making a grave mistake in dealing away this once in a lifetime player, you would think the overwhelming demand for his services in trade caused by other teams seeing his undeniable talent would warrant a higher draft pick in trade, if not cause Denver to reconsider completely.  But none of that happened.  Why is that?

Sounds like you weren't following the NFL in 2011 and are just relying on stats now.

Elway wanted to get rid of Tebow from the beginning as that was Josh McDaniel's pick before Elway took over.
He was hoping to just start Tebow so Tebow could fail and then they could move on.
Unfortunately for Elway, Tebow kept winning, week after week and making Elway look stupid into the playoffs against the Steelers.
This made it hard to get rid of Tebow in Denver but luckily for Elway, Manning choose Denver and so Elway had an out since you had a HOF QB. (Elway really lucked out there because Elway's not the best evaluator of QB talent: Brock Osweiler, Paxton Lynch. Kind of like the Michael Jordan of the NFL)

At that point the mistake he made was being traded to the Jets instead of the Jags. He didn't account for a snake like Butt Fumble Mark Sanchez who spent his entire career and all his energy with the Jets just playing political games to keep his starting job rather than be a real quarterback. So he really never had a fair shot at the Jets and his reputation was ruined because of it. Really though that was Tebow's fault for going to a media circus like New York and for being naive to think that Butt Fumble was his friend.

After that he was basically blackballed and labelled an athletic QB who couldn't pass and that was the end of his career.

At this stage in his career it's probably too late for him to be an effective QB.  Like Kapernick and RGIII, he still has issues with his mechanics and is too run reliant.

But I think he will still be an effective goal line and shortyardage back/QB, must like he was his freshman year with the Gators when they would take Chris Leak out and bring Tebow in for automatic TDs. All this tight end nonsense is just that because he has non of the traits that make an effective tight end in this league.

---

Dialog we've all heard 1,000 times

1.  Tebow is not even a competent NFL quarterback
2.  Yes he is. He has a career winning record and led the Broncos to an exciting 7-1 run and a playoff won.
3.  That was not because to him. The defense got suddenly better and the run game (but not Tebiw runs) got suddenly better.
4.  If a streak like that was actually due mostly to him, he wouldn't just be minimally competent,  he would be all pro level, elite.  You just said he was terrible.  You can't win like that with a terrible quarterback. He has to be at NFL competence level.
5.  He is terrible, I hereby double down.
6.  He was very good at some things,  but couldn't ultimately pass well enough to hold down the position.
7.  No he was not very good at anything.

Okay...let's add a few twists to the dialogue.

Tebow was good at running with the football not so good at passing the ball.  The statistics prove both.  But the overall consensus is that mobile QBs who can not function consistently or proficiently from the pocket are not good QBs (Akili Smith, Christian Ponder, Cade McNown among others).

Given this, why doesn't that conclusion apply to Tebow?  Why should a guy who can't complete 50% of his passes over the course of his career be given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to being a good QB?

At what point do his numbers and the opinions of countless GMs and head coaches over ten years (and counting considering his current tryout at TE, not QB) start to shape your opinion on Tebow's QB performance/potential?

Poor example.  Not sure why you are brining up Ponder or McNown who aren't that athletic. And Ponder is small and frail as well as not being athletic.

Better examples would have been spread read option guys like RGIII or Kapernick.

---

I certainly haven't read every post in this thread, but one thing I haven't noticed anyone mention is just how tiny Tebow is for the position. I did see some tweets from the beat writers talking about how shockingly short he looked compared to the rest of the position group, so I apologize if it's been brought up here and I missed it.

It's going to be extremely hard for him to be a competent blocker (which is probably what most would expect he would be better at right out of the gate, as opposed to both learning how to run routes and catch at an NFL level). Everyone he faces is going to have many inches of height and length on him.

Agreed. He has none of the attributes to be an effective tight end.
A little short for a stormtrooper.
Lacks lengths, or vertical.
Lacks straight line speed to get separation.

He has none of the physical or athletic measurables you want from a tight end.

I would rather have him be 3rd string QB or short yardage/goal line back where he has skills rather than try to play tight end, miss a blocking assignment and get TLaw severely injured. At least as 3rd string QB, there is no way for him to get TLaw injured.

---

Hopefully they place him on injured reserve to help his ego save face and we dont have his fans calling for him to start at QB if TLaw has a bad game. I also don't want him on the sideline being a distraction just to have a carry/catch a game.

Him being a bottom of the roster guy will never be accepted by Tebow or his congregation.

---

Hopefully they place him on injured reserve to help his ego save face and we dont have his fans calling for him to start at QB if TLaw has a bad game. I also don't want him on the sideline being a distraction just to have a carry/catch a game.

Him being a bottom of the roster guy will never be accepted by Tebow or his congregation.

We're not allowed to talk about religion on here but to answer your question it's the same "congregation" with Tebow and TLaw.

---

Hopefully they place him on injured reserve to help his ego save face and we dont have his fans calling for him to start at QB if TLaw has a bad game. I also don't want him on the sideline being a distraction just to have a carry/catch a game.

Him being a bottom of the roster guy will never be accepted by Tebow or his congregation.

We're not allowed to talk about religion on here but to answer your question it's the same "congregation" with Tebow and TLaw.

The. Hell. It. Is.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Okay...let's add a few twists to the dialogue.

Tebow was good at running with the football not so good at passing the ball.  The statistics prove both.  But the overall consensus is that mobile QBs who can not function consistently or proficiently from the pocket are not good QBs (Akili Smith, Christian Ponder, Cade McNown among others).

Given this, why doesn't that conclusion apply to Tebow?  Why should a guy who can't complete 50% of his passes over the course of his career be given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to being a good QB?

At what point do his numbers and the opinions of countless GMs and head coaches over ten years (and counting considering his current tryout at TE, not QB) start to shape your opinion on Tebow's QB performance/potential?

I don't understand your point.  Tebow  washed out years ago.  He couldn't make a roster.  "Competent NFL quarterback" doesn't entitle you to a job.  It makes you one af about 300 people applying for 32 jobs.

He's trying put as a TE.  Why can't you just have fun and root for the guy?  He's never going to QB.  

It seems like people are determined for him to fail in every sense.   Just enjoy it.  He was and is a great athlete that might be able to help.

People are still defending his performance as a QB and attribute any criticism of Tebow to hatred or jealousy or bias for his religious views.  These same people scarcely even acknowledge his challenges converting to TE after eight years away from the game.  

Even in your post, you tacitly assert I am rooting for him to fail.  I never said I am rooting for him to fail.  If I thought his failure would lead the Tebow cultists to finally give up their vigil, I might root for his failure, but I have found over the years no amount of fact will ever dampen the enthusiasm or devotion people have for Tebow.  I do believe, however, given the totality of the circumstances, he is more likely to fail at making the switch to TE than not, if the measure of success is developing enough competence in the position to:  a.  make the team and; B actually upgrade a position of dire need to objective observers, not merely to the satisfaction of Tebow sycophants.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

I don't understand your point.  Tebow  washed out years ago.  He couldn't make a roster.  "Competent NFL quarterback" doesn't entitle you to a job.  It makes you one af about 300 people applying for 32 jobs.

He's trying put as a TE.  Why can't you just have fun and root for the guy?  He's never going to QB.  

It seems like people are determined for him to fail in every sense.   Just enjoy it.  He was and is a great athlete that might be able to help.

People are still defending his performance as a QB and attribute any criticism of Tebow to hatred or jealousy or bias for his religious views.  These same people scarcely even acknowledge his challenges converting to TE after eight years away from the game.  

Even in your post, you tacitly assert I am rooting for him to fail.  I never said I am rooting for him to fail.  If I thought his failure would lead the Tebow cultists to finally give up their vigil, I might root for his failure, but I have found over the years no amount of fact will ever dampen the enthusiasm or devotion people have for Tebow.  I do believe, however, given the totality of the circumstances, he is more likely to fail at making the switch to TE than not, if the measure of success is developing enough competence in the position to:  a.  make the team and; B actually upgrade a position of dire need to objective observers, not merely to the satisfaction of Tebow sycophants.

This really makes me laugh.  But only because it's factual.

There's always an excuse/reason.  Always.  And I don't want to harken back to a prior post, but it's Twilight Zone-ish the length that Tebow cultists revert to.  I don't recall in my 65 years on this earth, the depths of this fanaticism.

I just don't, and probably never will, understand it.

---

They were 4-12 in 2010 (3-10 specifically under Orton)-easily verifiable, as pendragon would say.

That said, it doesn't mean that Tebow was solely or even mostly the cause for the improvement from 2010-2011, nor does it explain the post Tebow improvement on the same team with the same coach between 2012-2015.

Coach John Fox was there from in 2011 as was Von Miller.  Tebow was NOT there in 2012-2015, but Fox and Miller were.

So again, if Tebow were solely or even mostly responsible for the improvement from 2010-2011, why would Denver be so quick to get rid of him?  Why couldn't he replicate that success elsewhere if Denver's trade of Tebow was a mistake?  Why could he only command a 4th round draft pick in trade compensation if it were incontrovertible fact that Tebow was solely responsible for Denver's run and he were this undeniable talent?  Several QBs were rumored to be on the trade market this offseason:  Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson and DeShaun Watson, minimally, all had  at least one first round pick speculated as a baseline to acquire their services, with most supposedly commanding far more for their services.  But Tebow the living legend could only muster a 4th.  This was true even though there was a relative dearth of QBs carrying first round grades between 2012-2014.  Even if Denver were making a grave mistake in dealing away this once in a lifetime player, you would think the overwhelming demand for his services in trade caused by other teams seeing his undeniable talent would warrant a higher draft pick in trade, if not cause Denver to reconsider completely.  But none of that happened.  Why is that?

Sounds like you weren't following the NFL in 2011 and are just relying on stats now.

Elway wanted to get rid of Tebow from the beginning as that was Josh McDaniel's pick before Elway took over.
He was hoping to just start Tebow so Tebow could fail and then they could move on.
Unfortunately for Elway, Tebow kept winning, week after week and making Elway look stupid into the playoffs against the Steelers.
This made it hard to get rid of Tebow in Denver but luckily for Elway, Manning choose Denver and so Elway had an out since you had a HOF QB. (Elway really lucked out there because Elway's not the best evaluator of QB talent: Brock Osweiler, Paxton Lynch. Kind of like the Michael Jordan of the NFL)

At that point the mistake he made was being traded to the Jets instead of the Jags. He didn't account for a snake like Butt Fumble Mark Sanchez who spent his entire career and all his energy with the Jets just playing political games to keep his starting job rather than be a real quarterback. So he really never had a fair shot at the Jets and his reputation was ruined because of it. Really though that was Tebow's fault for going to a media circus like New York and for being naive to think that Butt Fumble was his friend.

After that he was basically blackballed and labelled an athletic QB who couldn't pass and that was the end of his career.

At this stage in his career it's probably too late for him to be an effective QB.  Like Kapernick and RGIII, he still has issues with his mechanics and is too run reliant.

But I think he will still be an effective goal line and shortyardage back/QB, must like he was his freshman year with the Gators when they would take Chris Leak out and bring Tebow in for automatic TDs. All this tight end nonsense is just that because he has non of the traits that make an effective tight end in this league.

---

Okay...let's add a few twists to the dialogue.

Tebow was good at running with the football not so good at passing the ball.  The statistics prove both.  But the overall consensus is that mobile QBs who can not function consistently or proficiently from the pocket are not good QBs (Akili Smith, Christian Ponder, Cade McNown among others).

Given this, why doesn't that conclusion apply to Tebow?  Why should a guy who can't complete 50% of his passes over the course of his career be given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to being a good QB?

At what point do his numbers and the opinions of countless GMs and head coaches over ten years (and counting considering his current tryout at TE, not QB) start to shape your opinion on Tebow's QB performance/potential?

Poor example.  Not sure why you are brining up Ponder or McNown who aren't that athletic. And Ponder is small and frail as well as not being athletic.

Better examples would have been spread read option guys like RGIII or Kapernick.

1.  I have been following NFL football since 1977.  I have not stopped following football at any time between then and now.  That covers the 2011 season.

2.  I have heard various versions of the Elway wanted to get rid of Tebow propaganda.  Some have theorized that a larger than life figure in Denver who amassed a first ballot Hall of Fame career with five Super Bowl appearances (XXI, XXII, XXIV, XXXII, XXXIII) and two Super Bowl victories (XXXII, XXXIII) was somehow threatened by or jealous of Tebow's popularity.  Some have posited the religious bias angle.  Yet none have offered a scintilla of actual objective, verifiable proof of any of this.  

3.  Elway has had problems drafting QBs over the years.  With this admission in mind, I would assert as a Hall of Fame QB himself who has learned the position from some of the best coaches in NFL history knows a little bit more about the position than most Tebow fans., Elway understands the position better than most.

4.  Even assuming Elway somehow lucked out with Manning's availability and was able to execute his nefarious plan to rid Denver of Tebow, it does not, in any way, explain the reticence of 31 other teams to pay more than a middling 4th round pick for him or to give him a shot at starting QB.  If Tebow played superbly at the most important and most difficult position to fill in sports and became available to every team, I guarantee he would have commanded more than a 4th round pick.  I guarantee more than two teams would have offered to trade for him.  I've yet to hear a Tebow apologist explain the lack of interest in Tebow after his supposedly brilliant 2011.  I have yet to hear a rational, fact based argument showing how Elway getting rid of Tebow was the wrong move.  I have yet to hear a rational fact based argument showing how 31 other teams who refused to give Tebow a shot at starting QB after 2011 made a mistake.

5.  McNown and Ponder were athletic.  As athletic as say, Vick or Kaepernick?  Perhaps not, but still athletic compared to many other QBs (especially McNown).  But even taking your assessment of the quality of the examples as accurate, the  underlying question still stands unaddressed by you. If athletic mobile QBs who cannot function effectively within the pocket as passers are of limited use/value as starting NFL QBs, what makes that analysis NOT apply to Tebow?

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Bullseye. Is. The. Best.

---

People are still defending his performance as a QB and attribute any criticism of Tebow to hatred or jealousy or bias for his religious views.  These same people scarcely even acknowledge his challenges converting to TE after eight years away from the game.  

Even in your post, you tacitly assert I am rooting for him to fail.  I never said I am rooting for him to fail.  If I thought his failure would lead the Tebow cultists to finally give up their vigil, I might root for his failure, but I have found over the years no amount of fact will ever dampen the enthusiasm or devotion people have for Tebow.  I do believe, however, given the totality of the circumstances, he is more likely to fail at making the switch to TE than not, if the measure of success is developing enough competence in the position to:  a.  make the team and; B actually upgrade a position of dire need to objective observers, not merely to the satisfaction of Tebow sycophants.

This really makes me laugh.  But only because it's factual.

There's always an excuse/reason.  Always.  And I don't want to harken back to a prior post, but it's Twilight Zone-ish the length that Tebow cultists revert to.  I don't recall in my 65 years on this earth, the depths of this fanaticism.

I just don't, and probably never will, understand it.

My thing is it transcends excuses.  There are often mitigating factors that contribute to a QBs lack of success in a given area.  The Jets gave Sam Darnold next to no help either from coaching or in terms of surrounding talent.  But the cult of Tebow never even acknowledge the failures.  Tebow cultists can look at his stats and say QBs who have thrown multiple times more TDs than Tebow and have double digit higher completion percentages, etc. somehow can't hold Tebow's jock strap.  That's the thing that gets me. 

It's as if they all fell for some sort of bizarre Jedi mind trick and ae bound and determine to try it out on everyone else.

---

Bullseye. Is. The. Best.

Thank you.

I don't know about that.

I DO know, however, that in terms of football ability, either as an NFL QB or TE, Tebow isn't, despite what his sycophants tell you.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

I'm done until some more info about whether he can .are the team at 34 comes out.

My appetite for Tebow discussion just is not this great.

---

Hopefully they place him on injured reserve to help his ego save face and we dont have his fans calling for him to start at QB if TLaw has a bad game. I also don't want him on the sideline being a distraction just to have a carry/catch a game.

Him being a bottom of the roster guy will never be accepted by Tebow or his congregation.

We're not allowed to talk about religion on here but to answer your question it's the same "congregation" with Tebow and TLaw.

Not even remotely the same. And I'm not talking the religious kind of congregation. Tebow-first fans are a rabid pack of dogs. Even his more "casual" fans put other player's super fans to shame. It's a strange phenomenon.  

TL fans seem pretty laid back so far.

---

Tebow is not making this team as a 3rd string QB. This is the NFL and not college. The 3rd string QB never dresses for the game and is kept around as a developmental talent. Tebow is only making this team as one of the top 4 TEs. If he isn't one of the top 4 TEs, he will be cut and go back to broadcasting and/or making personal appearances for money. He is not going to be this team's Taysom Hill and he isn't going to be a goal line back. Could he be used as a direct snap guy similar to college? Sure. But only if he makes the team as a TE.

---

We're not allowed to talk about religion on here but to answer your question it's the same "congregation" with Tebow and TLaw.

Not even remotely the same. And I'm not talking the religious kind of congregation. Tebow-first fans are a rabid pack of dogs. Even his more "casual" fans put other player's super fans to shame. It's a strange phenomenon.  

TL fans seem pretty laid back so far.

Oh, I think there is plenty of rabid dog to go around, the anti-pro-tebow crowd as feral as anything.  The lack of self-awareness in this thread is both humorous and depressing.

---

Not even remotely the same. And I'm not talking the religious kind of congregation. Tebow-first fans are a rabid pack of dogs. Even his more "casual" fans put other player's super fans to shame. It's a strange phenomenon.  

TL fans seem pretty laid back so far.

Oh, I think there is plenty of rabid dog to go around, the anti-pro-tebow crowd as feral as anything.  The lack of self-awareness in this thread is both humorous and depressing.

Well, as long as you get to look down your nose at us from on high I guess it's ok.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Not even remotely the same. And I'm not talking the religious kind of congregation. Tebow-first fans are a rabid pack of dogs. Even his more "casual" fans put other player's super fans to shame. It's a strange phenomenon.  

TL fans seem pretty laid back so far.

Oh, I think there is plenty of rabid dog to go around, the anti-pro-tebow crowd as feral as anything.  The lack of self-awareness in this thread is both humorous and depressing.

Thanks Dr. Phil.

---