(05-29-2021, 08:53 PM)Tank Commander Wrote:

(05-29-2021, 06:46 PM)Bullseye Wrote: They were 4-12 in 2010 (3-10 specifically under Orton)-easily verifiable, as pendragon would say.

That said, it doesn't mean that Tebow was solely or even mostly the cause for the improvement from 2010-2011, nor does it explain the post Tebow improvement on the same team with the same coach between 2012-2015.

Coach John Fox was there from in 2011 as was Von Miller.  Tebow was NOT there in 2012-2015, but Fox and Miller were.

So again, if Tebow were solely or even mostly responsible for the improvement from 2010-2011, why would Denver be so quick to get rid of him?  Why couldn't he replicate that success elsewhere if Denver's trade of Tebow was a mistake?  Why could he only command a 4th round draft pick in trade compensation if it were incontrovertible fact that Tebow was solely responsible for Denver's run and he were this undeniable talent?  Several QBs were rumored to be on the trade market this offseason:  Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson and DeShaun Watson, minimally, all had  at least one first round pick speculated as a baseline to acquire their services, with most supposedly commanding far more for their services.  But Tebow the living legend could only muster a 4th.  This was true even though there was a relative dearth of QBs carrying first round grades between 2012-2014.  Even if Denver were making a grave mistake in dealing away this once in a lifetime player, you would think the overwhelming demand for his services in trade caused by other teams seeing his undeniable talent would warrant a higher draft pick in trade, if not cause Denver to reconsider completely.  But none of that happened.  Why is that?

Sounds like you weren't following the NFL in 2011 and are just relying on stats now.

Elway wanted to get rid of Tebow from the beginning as that was Josh McDaniel's pick before Elway took over.
He was hoping to just start Tebow so Tebow could fail and then they could move on.
Unfortunately for Elway, Tebow kept winning, week after week and making Elway look stupid into the playoffs against the Steelers.
This made it hard to get rid of Tebow in Denver but luckily for Elway, Manning choose Denver and so Elway had an out since you had a HOF QB. (Elway really lucked out there because Elway's not the best evaluator of QB talent: Brock Osweiler, Paxton Lynch. Kind of like the Michael Jordan of the NFL)

At that point the mistake he made was being traded to the Jets instead of the Jags. He didn't account for a snake like Butt Fumble Mark Sanchez who spent his entire career and all his energy with the Jets just playing political games to keep his starting job rather than be a real quarterback. So he really never had a fair shot at the Jets and his reputation was ruined because of it. Really though that was Tebow's fault for going to a media circus like New York and for being naive to think that Butt Fumble was his friend.

After that he was basically blackballed and labelled an athletic QB who couldn't pass and that was the end of his career.

At this stage in his career it's probably too late for him to be an effective QB.  Like Kapernick and RGIII, he still has issues with his mechanics and is too run reliant.

But I think he will still be an effective goal line and shortyardage back/QB, must like he was his freshman year with the Gators when they would take Chris Leak out and bring Tebow in for automatic TDs. All this tight end nonsense is just that because he has non of the traits that make an effective tight end in this league.

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(05-29-2021, 07:41 PM)Bullseye Wrote: Okay...let's add a few twists to the dialogue.

Tebow was good at running with the football not so good at passing the ball.  The statistics prove both.  But the overall consensus is that mobile QBs who can not function consistently or proficiently from the pocket are not good QBs (Akili Smith, Christian Ponder, Cade McNown among others).

Given this, why doesn't that conclusion apply to Tebow?  Why should a guy who can't complete 50% of his passes over the course of his career be given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to being a good QB?

At what point do his numbers and the opinions of countless GMs and head coaches over ten years (and counting considering his current tryout at TE, not QB) start to shape your opinion on Tebow's QB performance/potential?

Poor example.  Not sure why you are brining up Ponder or McNown who aren't that athletic. And Ponder is small and frail as well as not being athletic.

Better examples would have been spread read option guys like RGIII or Kapernick.

1.  I have been following NFL football since 1977.  I have not stopped following football at any time between then and now.  That covers the 2011 season.

2.  I have heard various versions of the Elway wanted to get rid of Tebow propaganda.  Some have theorized that a larger than life figure in Denver who amassed a first ballot Hall of Fame career with five Super Bowl appearances (XXI, XXII, XXIV, XXXII, XXXIII) and two Super Bowl victories (XXXII, XXXIII) was somehow threatened by or jealous of Tebow's popularity.  Some have posited the religious bias angle.  Yet none have offered a scintilla of actual objective, verifiable proof of any of this.  

3.  Elway has had problems drafting QBs over the years.  With this admission in mind, I would assert as a Hall of Fame QB himself who has learned the position from some of the best coaches in NFL history knows a little bit more about the position than most Tebow fans., Elway understands the position better than most.

4.  Even assuming Elway somehow lucked out with Manning's availability and was able to execute his nefarious plan to rid Denver of Tebow, it does not, in any way, explain the reticence of 31 other teams to pay more than a middling 4th round pick for him or to give him a shot at starting QB.  If Tebow played superbly at the most important and most difficult position to fill in sports and became available to every team, I guarantee he would have commanded more than a 4th round pick.  I guarantee more than two teams would have offered to trade for him.  I've yet to hear a Tebow apologist explain the lack of interest in Tebow after his supposedly brilliant 2011.  I have yet to hear a rational, fact based argument showing how Elway getting rid of Tebow was the wrong move.  I have yet to hear a rational fact based argument showing how 31 other teams who refused to give Tebow a shot at starting QB after 2011 made a mistake.

5.  McNown and Ponder were athletic.  As athletic as say, Vick or Kaepernick?  Perhaps not, but still athletic compared to many other QBs (especially McNown).  But even taking your assessment of the quality of the examples as accurate, the  underlying question still stands unaddressed by you. If athletic mobile QBs who cannot function effectively within the pocket as passers are of limited use/value as starting NFL QBs, what makes that analysis NOT apply to Tebow?

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