(05-30-2021, 10:32 AM)Tank Commander Wrote:

(05-29-2021, 10:52 PM)Bullseye Wrote: 1.  I have been following NFL football since 1977.  I have not stopped following football at any time between then and now.  That covers the 2011 season.

2.  I have heard various versions of the Elway wanted to get rid of Tebow propaganda.  Some have theorized that a larger than life figure in Denver who amassed a first ballot Hall of Fame career with five Super Bowl appearances (XXI, XXII, XXIV, XXXII, XXXIII) and two Super Bowl victories (XXXII, XXXIII) was somehow threatened by or jealous of Tebow's popularity.  Some have posited the religious bias angle.  Yet none have offered a scintilla of actual objective, verifiable proof of any of this.  

3.  Elway has had problems drafting QBs over the years.  With this admission in mind, I would assert as a Hall of Fame QB himself who has learned the position from some of the best coaches in NFL history knows a little bit more about the position than most Tebow fans., Elway understands the position better than most.

4.  Even assuming Elway somehow lucked out with Manning's availability and was able to execute his nefarious plan to rid Denver of Tebow, it does not, in any way, explain the reticence of 31 other teams to pay more than a middling 4th round pick for him or to give him a shot at starting QB.  If Tebow played superbly at the most important and most difficult position to fill in sports and became available to every team, I guarantee he would have commanded more than a 4th round pick.  I guarantee more than two teams would have offered to trade for him.  I've yet to hear a Tebow apologist explain the lack of interest in Tebow after his supposedly brilliant 2011.  I have yet to hear a rational, fact based argument showing how Elway getting rid of Tebow was the wrong move.  I have yet to hear a rational fact based argument showing how 31 other teams who refused to give Tebow a shot at starting QB after 2011 made a mistake.

5.  McNown and Ponder were athletic.  As athletic as say, Vick or Kaepernick?  Perhaps not, but still athletic compared to many other QBs (especially McNown).  But even taking your assessment of the quality of the examples as accurate, the  underlying question still stands unaddressed by you. If athletic mobile QBs who cannot function effectively within the pocket as passers are of limited use/value as starting NFL QBs, what makes that analysis NOT apply to Tebow?

1. Then you choose to omit things or misremember what happened. You failed to mentions Elway's bad talent evaluation or desire to get rid of Tebow during the 2011 season until it was brought up.

2. Irrelevant. It really doesn't matter why Elway wanted to get rid of Tebow. The fact is that he did get want to get rid of him and his behavior and actions indicate such. It's actually quite normal for a new GM to come in and want to clean house on the actions of previous GMs' so not sure why it's important to you what those reasons were. 

3. You yourself admit that Elway has a problem identifying talent. Someone who knew what he was doing in terms of the QB position doesn't trade up for Paxton Lynch and pass up on Dak Prescott or miss identifying Pat Mahomes as a must get.  This puts Elway's evaluation of the QB position in the modern game in question. He's just not great at evaluating just like Michael Jordan is a horrible talent evaluator despite being the greatest player ever.

4. Is irrelevant because Elway did want to get rid of Tebow. He drafted his son's roommate, Brock Osweiiler in the 2nd round and signed Manning, which pretty much assured Tebow was gone given Tebow's 1st round salary. It was obvious to every other team that Elway wanted to get rid of Tebow so why on earth would anyone pay a high price to get him.

5. Still odd that you bring up McNown and Ponder. Both are smaller and frailer and only a little bit athletic. Different body types and players. And neither has won at any level college or pro. So I can only assume you picked those two for one reason as a comp for Tebow.

1.  No, I didn't omit anything from the analysis, either before Elway came up in this discussion or after.  Nor did I misremember any relevant facts.  You keep harping on Elway's record at drafting QBs.  Again I acknowledge his draft misses, either his drafting players he should not have drafted or failing to draft players he should have.  However, basing your analysis on this is faulty for several reasons:

• It is immaterial.  Elway DID NOT draft Tebow.  He did not draft a guy he should not have drafted in the case of Tebow, nor did he fail to draft a player he should have drafted in the case of Tebow.  His drafting skills at QB do not matter in this analysis, in large part because...
  
• it is incomplete.  Drafting/not drafting a QB is not all there is when it comes to managing the position.  Knowing when/if to get rid of a QB on your roster is also key to effectively managing the position.  Every year, teams cut guys who are effectively camp arms...guys with little to no chance of making the roster, but who are on teams to limit the reps for the starters to keep their arms fresh.  Nobody bats an eye when these guys are cut, except for the guys who are actually cut and their family and friends rooting for them to make the team.  Nobody who follows the team ever really thinks about him again. Conversely, there are also guys who are great players/have great potential who have no business being cut or traded away by their original teams, and go on to untold success wit their new team while their former team has egg on their faces for making such a boneheaded move.   In 1991 the Falcons drafted Brett Favre but then because of his partying, they traded him the next year to the Green Bay Packers.  For the next twenty or so years, Brett Favre became a first ballot Hall of Famer, winning a Super Bowl, guiding the Packers to two, winning multiple league MVPs and being named to any number of All Pro and Pro Bowl teams.  How did Atlanta fare at the position after trading him?  Not so well.  Then there's New England.  They had the GOAT QB already on the roster, and he won six Super Bowls for them and took them to three others.  But different surrounding positions fell into disrepair on the team, notably WR.  They refused to adequately address the deficiencies and ultimately let him walk.  Brady went to Tampa and promptly won last year's Super Bowl, while New England had their worst record since the 2000 season.   Denver had Tebow on the roster when Elway came aboard.  Denver traded Tebow away, and within the following four seasons amassed a 50-14 regular season record, went to two Super Bowls, winning one.  Tebow never started another game as an NFL QB.   While I do not work as an educator, I think a very short multiple choice pop quiz is in order. Which of those dynamics described above  does the Tebow departure from Denver most resemble?  The camp arm cut that nobody from Denver regrets making, or the irretrievably stupid cut that the original team regrets while the subsequent team flourishes?  
  
• It's insane.  If you think Elway's evaluation of Tebow's performance is somehow irrelevant to the discussion, the analysis is insane.  GMs make performance evaluations all the time.  You argue as if you think Elway had no legitimate football based reasoning to dump Tebow.  You cite his drafting of Brock Osweiler as some sort of indicia the dumping of Tebow was illegitimate.  I'll be the first to admit Osweiler was no great shakes as a QB.  But a glance at his performance shows more than DOUBLE Tebow's career TD passes and a completion percentage double digits higher than Tebow's. At what point do objective statistical comparisons hold any weight with Tebow fans? The insanity deepens if you think Tebow as a QB was universally viewed as an undeniable talent at the most important position in football would not command more than a 4th round pick in trade.  Even if Denver were eager to get rid of him despite his alleged greatness to achieve some bizarre form of football nepotism by Elway, the demand for his services by QB starved teams not operating with some anti Tebow ulterior motive would be overwhelming.  There would be a bidding war for his services.  Teams would eagerly offer a first round pick at least for an in his prime great QB with virtually unassailable character and a cheap rookie contract (see Bears offer for Russell Wilson;  see also Buffalo trade for Rob Johnson back in 1998).  Heck, for a player with some questionable off field issues at a non QB position, reportedly 26 of the 32 teams made some sort of inquiry about the availability of Jalen Ramsey.  But somehow they wouldn't get in a bidding war for Tim Tebow if they thought he was great?!? 
  

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