(05-30-2021, 01:39 PM)Tank Commander Wrote:

(05-30-2021, 01:24 PM)Bullseye Wrote: 1.  No, I didn't omit anything from the analysis, either before Elway came up in this discussion or after.  Nor did I misremember any relevant facts.  You keep harping on Elway's record at drafting QBs.  Again I acknowledge his draft misses, either his drafting players he should not have drafted or failing to draft players he should have.  However, basing your analysis on this is faulty for several reasons:

• It is immaterial.  Elway DID NOT draft Tebow.  He did not draft a guy he should not have drafted in the case of Tebow, nor did he fail to draft a player he should have drafted in the case of Tebow.  His drafting skills at QB do not matter in this analysis, in large part because...
  
• it is incomplete.  Drafting/not drafting a QB is not all there is when it comes to managing the position.  Knowing when/if to get rid of a QB on your roster is also key to effectively managing the position.  Every year, teams cut guys who are effectively camp arms...guys with little to no chance of making the roster, but who are on teams to limit the reps for the starters to keep their arms fresh.  Nobody bats an eye when these guys are cut, except for the guys who are actually cut and their family and friends rooting for them to make the team.  Nobody who follows the team ever really thinks about him again. Conversely, there are also guys who are great players/have great potential who have no business being cut or traded away by their original teams, and go on to untold success wit their new team while their former team has egg on their faces for making such a boneheaded move.   In 1991 the Falcons drafted Brett Favre but then because of his partying, they traded him the next year to the Green Bay Packers.  For the next twenty or so years, Brett Favre became a first ballot Hall of Famer, winning a Super Bowl, guiding the Packers to two, winning multiple league MVPs and being named to any number of All Pro and Pro Bowl teams.  How did Atlanta fare at the position after trading him?  Not so well.  Then there's New England.  They had the GOAT QB already on the roster, and he won six Super Bowls for them and took them to three others.  But different surrounding positions fell into disrepair on the team, notably WR.  They refused to adequately address the deficiencies and ultimately let him walk.  Brady went to Tampa and promptly won last year's Super Bowl, while New England had their worst record since the 2000 season.   Denver had Tebow on the roster when Elway came aboard.  Denver traded Tebow away, and within the following four seasons amassed a 50-14 regular season record, went to two Super Bowls, winning one.  Tebow never started another game as an NFL QB.   While I do not work as an educator, I think a very short multiple choice pop quiz is in order. Which of those dynamics described above  does the Tebow departure from Denver most resemble?  The camp arm cut that nobody from Denver regrets making, or the irretrievably stupid cut that the original team regrets while the subsequent team flourishes?  
  
• It's insane.  If you think Elway's evaluation of Tebow's performance is somehow irrelevant to the discussion, the analysis is insane.  GMs make performance evaluations all the time.  You argue as if you think Elway had no legitimate football based reasoning to dump Tebow.  You cite his drafting of Brock Osweiler as some sort of indicia the dumping of Tebow was illegitimate.  I'll be the first to admit Osweiler was no great shakes as a QB.  But a glance at his performance shows more than DOUBLE Tebow's career TD passes and a completion percentage double digits higher than Tebow's. At what point do objective statistical comparisons hold any weight with Tebow fans? The insanity deepens if you think Tebow as a QB was universally viewed as an undeniable talent at the most important position in football would not command more than a 4th round pick in trade.  Even if Denver were eager to get rid of him despite his alleged greatness to achieve some bizarre form of football nepotism by Elway, the demand for his services by QB starved teams not operating with some anti Tebow ulterior motive would be overwhelming.  There would be a bidding war for his services.  Teams would eagerly offer a first round pick at least for an in his prime great QB with virtually unassailable character and a cheap rookie contract (see Bears offer for Russell Wilson;  see also Buffalo trade for Rob Johnson back in 1998).  Heck, for a player with some questionable off field issues at a non QB position, reportedly 26 of the 32 teams made some sort of inquiry about the availability of Jalen Ramsey.  But somehow they wouldn't get in a bidding war for Tim Tebow if they thought he was great?!? 
  

You yourself used Elway as a reason to question Tebow's value as a Game Manger QB.
Yet we have shown that Elway is a horrible evaluator of talent, even at the QB position. (Just like Michael Jordan is a horrible evaluator of talent).

You really have no answer to why Elway traded up for Paxton Lynch and bypassed Dak Prescott.  Surely, if Elway had an accurate grasp of QB talent and ability he would not have done this  Surely, if Elway had an accurate grasp of QB talent he would have gone after Mahomes the following year.  Yet Elway was all in on both his son's roommate, Brock Osweiler and Paxton Lynch.  The record speaks for itself with Elway and QB talent evaluation.

I'm not sure how Manning choosing Denver is any vindication of Elway.  Manning is one of the greatest QB's of all time. Of course they made the Super Bowl, duh. Just like Tom Brady choosing Tampa and low and behold Super Bowl. Anybody could do that.

In fact if you look at it Elway has only really won under Manning (Super Bowls) and Tebow (AFC Championship).
So maybe you should show Tebow some more respect then lumping him below perennial losers like Kyle Orton and Christian Ponder. What did those two every win at the pro or college level.

1.  I could completely omit Elway from the discussion and still offer a compelling argument as to why Tebow was wholly unqualified to be an NFL QB.  Your grasping at Elway's draft misses at the position reeks of desperation, and still does not improve Tebow's numbers in any way, nor does it change the fact that no team AFTER Denver got rid of Tebow felt particularly inclined to give Tebow a shot as a starting QB.  You have completely dodged this point in every single one of your posts.  Why?  Do you somehow assert every team had a John Elway who was totally incapable of evaluating the QB position and had an axe to grind against Tebow? What of my argument about knowing which QBs to keep and which to cut?  Do you argue that a team making a personnel mistake or even several at the position mean that every decision at the position was a mistake?  Do you somehow assert that because the Jaguars made mistakes in drafting Gabbert and Bortles it was somehow a mistake to cut Tanner Lee?

2.  No I have no answer as to why Elway made those decisions because they are immaterial to the discussion at hand.  A team could be incorrect in drafting a certain player but correct in getting rid of another.  Furthermore, there is a lot that goes into drafting or executing a trade up to be able to draft a player (Mahomes).  Denver was not in a position to draft Mahomes at their original draft position.  They would have had to spend their own first round pick from that year, but the following year's first round pick.  But Tebow was already on the roster.  The team didn't have to trade up to acquire him like they would have had to with Mahomes or Watson.  He had a full season as an understudy and another as the majority starter yet not even head coach John Fox seemed to offer much objection to trading Tebow.  I could see making the move for Manning.  Once in a lifetime opportunity.  But if Elway and Fox were sold on Tebow's potential, they could have kept him on the bench until Manning retired, extended his contract and let Tebow take over and avoid the draft mishaps.  But they didn't.  They got rid of him, and no subsequent team gave him a shot at QB.  Again, you have not addressed this point.

3.  This article shows how Manning choosing Denver vindicates Elway.  Why Did Peyton Manning Sign With the Denver Broncos? (businessinsider.com).  A non QB ay not have appreciated the importance of system continuity the way Elway, a former QB, did.

4.  Tebow was never in an AFC championship game.  That win over Pittsburgh was the Wildcard round.  The 45-10 blowout loss to New England was the divisional round. As for the respect that should be afforded Tebow, that is a good question.

How much respect should be afforded to a QB that lasted all of two seasons with the team that drafted him, who never got another starting QB gig anywhere else in the league, who has a career completion percentage of 48 in an era designed by rules changes implemented decades ago to accommodate passing games, who has less than 20 career TD passes, and has never gone beyond the divisional round of the playoffs?

As for whether guys like Christian Ponder are somehow beneath comparison to Tebow?

Here's Ponder's career numbers.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...ndCh00.htm

Here's Blaine Gabbert's https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...bbBl00.htm

Here's Tim Couch's https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...ucTi00.htm

E.J. Manuel
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...nuEJ00.htm

JP Losman
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...smJ.00.htm

Kyle Boller: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...llKy00.htm

Here's Tebow's: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...boTi00.htm

Now feel free to let me know when I reach a guy among these busts who Tebow statistically blows out of the water as a passer so that a comparison is totally unwarranted.

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