(05-30-2021, 06:41 PM)Tank Commander Wrote:

(05-30-2021, 02:54 PM)Bullseye Wrote: 1.  I could completely omit Elway from the discussion and still offer a compelling argument as to why Tebow was wholly unqualified to be an NFL QB.  Your grasping at Elway's draft misses at the position reeks of desperation, and still does not improve Tebow's numbers in any way, nor does it change the fact that no team AFTER Denver got rid of Tebow felt particularly inclined to give Tebow a shot as a starting QB.  You have completely dodged this point in every single one of your posts.  Why?  Do you somehow assert every team had a John Elway who was totally incapable of evaluating the QB position and had an axe to grind against Tebow? What of my argument about knowing which QBs to keep and which to cut?  Do you argue that a team making a personnel mistake or even several at the position mean that every decision at the position was a mistake?  Do you somehow assert that because the Jaguars made mistakes in drafting Gabbert and Bortles it was somehow a mistake to cut Tanner Lee?

2.  No I have no answer as to why Elway made those decisions because they are immaterial to the discussion at hand.  A team could be incorrect in drafting a certain player but correct in getting rid of another.  Furthermore, there is a lot that goes into drafting or executing a trade up to be able to draft a player (Mahomes).  Denver was not in a position to draft Mahomes at their original draft position.  They would have had to spend their own first round pick from that year, but the following year's first round pick.  But Tebow was already on the roster.  The team didn't have to trade up to acquire him like they would have had to with Mahomes or Watson.  He had a full season as an understudy and another as the majority starter yet not even head coach John Fox seemed to offer much objection to trading Tebow.  I could see making the move for Manning.  Once in a lifetime opportunity.  But if Elway and Fox were sold on Tebow's potential, they could have kept him on the bench until Manning retired, extended his contract and let Tebow take over and avoid the draft mishaps.  But they didn't.  They got rid of him, and no subsequent team gave him a shot at QB.  Again, you have not addressed this point.

3.  This article shows how Manning choosing Denver vindicates Elway.  Why Did Peyton Manning Sign With the Denver Broncos? (businessinsider.com).  A non QB ay not have appreciated the importance of system continuity the way Elway, a former QB, did.

4.  Tebow was never in an AFC championship game.  That win over Pittsburgh was the Wildcard round.  The 45-10 blowout loss to New England was the divisional round.  As for the respect that should be afforded Tebow, that is a good question.

How much respect should be afforded to a QB that lasted all of two seasons with the team that drafted him, who never got another starting QB gig anywhere else in the league, who has a career completion percentage of 48 in an era designed by rules changes implemented decades ago to accommodate passing games, who has less than 20 career TD passes, and has never gone beyond the divisional round of the playoffs?

As for whether guys like Christian Ponder are somehow beneath comparison to Tebow?

Here's Ponder's career numbers.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...ndCh00.htm

Here's Blaine Gabbert's https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...bbBl00.htm

Here's Tim Couch's https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...ucTi00.htm

E.J. Manuel
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...nuEJ00.htm

JP Losman
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...smJ.00.htm

Kyle Boller:  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...llKy00.htm

Here's Tebow's:  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...boTi00.htm

Now feel free to let me know when I reach a guy among these busts who Tebow statistically blows out of the water as a passer so that a comparison is totally unwarranted.

So good to see that you are conceding on the Elway nonsense.  The Michael Jordan of QB talent evaluation.

You are moving the goal posts however with EJ Manuel, Couch, Losman, Boller.
Let me ask you this. How many NFL playoff games and NCAA National Championships did Ponder/Gabbert/Couch/EJ Maneul/Losman/Boller win?

---

You delude yourself.

I am conceding nothing on the Elway point.  Drafting is only part of the equation.  Purging the roster of dead weight and knowing when to upgrade a position on a roster with free agents or vets is also key.  Once again, you completely DUCKED that argument.

As far as moving the goalposts, nothing could be further from the truth.  If anything I am trying desperately to get you to substantively address Tebow's shortcomings.  I have offered objective, statistical evidence that as a passer, Tebow wasn't as good as his predecessor in the position, nor was he as good as his successor in the position.  I have offered evidence showing that the Denver offense as a whole was less productive with him at the helm than his predecessor and his successor.  I have offered objective statistical evidence that the passing yardage decreased when Tebow was inserted.  I have offered objective statistical evidence showing your claim that Tebow was responsible for Denver's improved rushing totals was overstated, pointing out Willis McGahee nearly doubled Tebow's rushing output.  Nothing you have offered negates or even mitigates ANY of this.

Then I appealed to history and common sense.  You have offered the tacit assertion that Elway had some sort of nefarious agenda in dumping Tebow having nothing to do with football or Tebow's on field performance, minimally at best substantiated by fact.  I pointed out Elway was a former QB that understands the position.  You offered the missed draft picks, as if the failure of Elway to draft a good QB somehow makes Tebow a better QB in the analysis.  I pointed out that even assuming Elway had some sort of axe to grind against Tebow, that alone does not explain the refusal of every other team in the league to make Tebow a starting QB.  We have yet to hear you address that point at all, much less substantively.  When I pointed out that QB is such an in demand position, that even a guy like Rob Johnson merited a first round pick plus a 4th round pick in trade, while Tebow had a far lengthier on field record and could only command a 4th, you respond by incredibly offering there's no demand for a great QB and that somehow Denver's interest in ridding itself of Tebow eliminates the need to maximize any possible return they could get for him.

Your pathetic filibuster continued when you continued to duck my question about why the analysis of mobile QBs with limited passing proficiency should not apply to Tebow.  Long after I posed the question, as of this post, you have yet to address that issue.  You then became indignant at the idea I would lump Tebow in with the likes of Christian Ponder and suggested I should give Tebow more respect.  Yet when I posted links comparing Tebow's numbers were worse in most passing categories than every single bust QB I listed, instead of showing how Tebow's numbers were substantially better as to not warrant comparison, you accuse me of moving the goal post in offering those numbers for comparison.  If Tebow was demonstrably better than those guys, it isn't a particularly onerous burden to show how Tebow's career far exceeds theirs.  Instead, you pose the question as to how many playoff games and college national championships the bust QBs I have listed have won.

Unlike you, I won't duck that inquiry.  I will address it directly.  All of those QBs have exactly ONE (1) fewer playoff win than Tebow.  WHoop de [BLEEP] doo!  As far as college national championships....who in the blue hell cares?  Danny Wuerffel, Chris Weinke, Jamelle Holloway, Jay Barker have all won National Championships in college. (We'll call this group A) Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, John Elway, Dan Marino, Big Ben, Drew Brees, Troy Aikman, Patrick Mahomes and Brett Favre did not.  (we'll call this group B.  Which group represents the best NFL QBs?

As others have pointed out, it's sad that in a forum devoted to NFL football, you have to resort to college national championships to somehow puff up the pro career of Tim Tebow.  It's a tacit admission that his pro performance cannot stand on it's own merit.

---